My tank came in and I have the kit & compressor on order. The kit should be here in another week or so. The compressors are hand-built at the factory upon order, then shipped to the US. So it'll be a few weeks before it comes in. But I won't need the compressor until later in the summer anyway.

Here are some pics of the tank:

The pic doesn't do the size of the tank justice. The tank is quite big and will completely fill the width of my bed with only a few inches for the valve. The top of the tank will be level with the bed rails. After getting under the truck and taking measurements, it because obvious real quick that there's no way the tank could go under the truck behind the bumper. There's too much crap in the way that would have to be cut out and even if mounted, the tank would literally be inches from the ground...don't it any bumps or load the bed with anything or the tank would be scraping crete...so much for that idea.

It came well packed in a box and on a pallet. I've been doing some extensive reading about the testing these tanks go through, and it's amazing the crap these tanks have to endure to be a viable vessel for CNG. But then the gas is under relatively extreme pressures. So it makes sense that the tank would need to be literally bullet proof as well as flame proof, drop proof, and over-pressure proof. And when the tanks do fail, they are specifically designed to leak-fail, not rupture fail in an effort to fail as gracefully as possible. The tanks have an expiration date, but people that don't require inspections have run these tanks WAY past their expiration date with not a single person reporting an issue. I tried to Google CNG Disasters and the only thing I found was an explosion in Thailand that was due to a poor installation by someone that had no clue what they were doing. I haven't found a single incident where disaster happened on a correctly installed system.

Interestingly, some non EPA certified kits have more desirable components and safety features than some EPA certified ones. So if you don't have an EPA certification for a kit, that's not exactly an indication of an inferior kit...just a kit that the sellers have no desire to invest in having EPA tested or there's some other aspect of the kit that doesn't meet EPA certification that has nothing to do with safety. EPA certified kit or not, if it isn't installed by EPA certified CNG installers, it still won't pass an "EPA" inspection if that is required.

So why be EPA certified? If you are a company with a CNG fleet, the fleet must be outfitted with EPA certified equipment (it's a liability thing mostly I'm sure). But most likely such a company's maintenance employees would get EPA certification to work on that CNG equipment for both new installs as well as maintenance. Add to this, to get federal/state subsidies, you have to have a DEDICATED CNG conversion, EPA certified, and installed by a EPA certified personnel. But enough about all that...

Here's the tank's valve:

It was removed to fit in the box. The tank just BARELY fits in the box without the valve. But having it removed does give me a chance to photograph it. As labelled, the long thing hanging off the valve is a heat/pressure relief. If the pressure gets over 125% over rated pressure or gets too hot, this vents the tank. Notice it is "under" the valve portion so it is "connected" to the tank even if the valve is closed and has the tank isolated from the rest of the system. After all the tank has to be able to vent even if the valve is closed. There's an additional fitting on the end of the relief as though it was piped to relieve somewhere other than next to the tank. In busses or enclosed installations, I imagine that's a necessity. With the tank mounted in the bed of the truck, I don't know of a better place to vent than right into the bed. The bed is likely safer than venting under the truck since NatGas is lighter than air and will naturally float upward similar to Helium.

The two valved fittings are straight-thru when the valve is open. When the valve is closed, the fittings are cut off from the tank and from each other. I expect one side will go to my filling valve that the refueling line will connect to. The other side will connect to the stainless line that goes to the engine bay.

One thing I haven't found any info on is if it is necessary to pull a vacuum on the CNG tank before filling it. It sounds like an explosion waiting to happen if you go pumping NatGas into a tank full of air. But then I realized that the temp/pressure combo required to "ignite" NatGas under ideal AFRs is not going to be attained in the tank. NatGas won't even ignite when put into a diesel engine. CNG conversions on diesel require a small amount of diesel to be an ignition source for the CNG since there's no spark plugs in a diesel. And even if the pressure did get close in the tank, the AFR would be so far out of balance, there wouldn't be enough air to support a flame. The mix would simply be too rich. So that might explain why I simply haven't found ANY mention that pulling a vacuum on the tank before filling it is necessary.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

yeah i wouldn't think pulling it down would be necessary, and if it was the compressor would have that capability as well. All in all lookin good! can't wait to see this setup in action!

You got the new engine done yet?

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

Minor numbers update.

Right now, prices of gasoline are coming down a tad in this area. Although they are still "too high". At $3/gal, they'd be what I call too high and from the reports I've been reading, they aren't likely to get lower than that and if they hit that, they won't stay there. It's inevitable, they will go back up...OPEC will see to that. Even if we drill more, get oil output higher, OPEC will simply back off and keep the price high.

On the flipside, NatGas is seeing its lowest values in a long time. In fact, NatGas is so abundant right now that it's selling for a loss in most places which has caused drilling for NatGas to back off. So it'll go back up from where it is. But it doesn't have to go up much before it is profitable again. NatGas is cheaper, on a per-unit-heat basis to drill for evidently. I was reading that NatGas is at $6/MBTU and it needs to be at $8/MBTU to make a profit and encourage further drilling. Here's that article:
As Natural Gas Prices Fall, the Search Turns to Oil

To put all that info into perspective, 1 MBTU is 1 Million BTUs. NatGas is usually billed in terms of therms which is 100,000 BTUs, but oddly is measured in CFMs. They sell to you in therms because the concentration of the NatGas can change based on the source and the NatGas vendor. Some vendors supply 90% NatGas, others are closer to 95-98%. The percentage that isn't NatGas is usually inert components like water vapor or CO2. But since the inert portion is not what you are paying for, you shouldn't have to pay for it just because it is there. So to keep vendors from purposely "cutting" the mix, laws were written YEARS ago to sell NatGas by the heat content, not by the volume so they can deliver you whatever makes economical sense. They then apply a cfm-to-therm correction on your bill. Now what enforces an honest conversion, I'm not 100% sure.

Moving on, NatGas is selling at ~$.60/therm right now...which is barely break-even, and in some cases a loss. So you know that won't last. The encouraging thing is NatGas is profitable enough to continue drilling efforts when it reaches ~$.80/therm which means the price doesn't have to rise by much to encourage more production.

But as mentioned earlier, therms are a little more difficult to compare to gasoline or E10. So it's nicer to compare NatGas with them in terms of Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE) units. 1 gallon of 100% gasoline has roughly 114,000 BTU/gallon. The Ethanol blended E10 most of us have to run is closer to 111,800 BTU/gallon hence the reduction in fuel economy with E10. While GGE is the standard comparison, I don't burn 100% gasoline, so I prefer to compare in terms of E10 Gallon Equivelants. But because E10GE is not a standard unit of measure I've ever seen, I'll continue referring to comparison of NatGas to E10 as units of GGEs. So right now 1 E10 GGE is selling for about $0.58 (wholesale). That's low, but that's not what it sells to customers for. Local distributors and resellers mark it up which is why I'm paying $.98/therm on my bill (~$1.10/GGE). That seemed like a LOT of markup to me so I started looking around at other distributors that sell for cheaper. And sure enough, there are other distributors in my area that are selling NatGas for a locked-in rate of $.77/therm (~$.86/GGE) with 18 month contract. When I get everything running, it just makes sense to switch NatGas suppliers for that difference in price.

Now that's the GGE of NatGas uncompressed. CNG has the additional cost overhead of the electricity it takes to compress it. Right now my best guess is that there's ~$.30-.35/GGE that must be added to the cost of the NatGas. I have no clue how accurate that is, but if it isn't accurate, I hope it is high. But even if it is $.40/GGE, that's a total of $1.26/GGE price which is still not bad compared to what premium is selling for locally $3.75/gal. Considering my new 331 is too high of compression to run 87 octane, it really should be compared to premium, which is $.30 higher...selling at $4.05/gal.

Right now, I've conserved my driving WAY back. But if fuel was cheaper, I would go more places and enjoy driving more. So lets say I average 200 miles/week, with today's prices, I'll have the investment paid back in 5 years. Neither gas nor NatGas will remain stable, but this is the best estimate I can make. But what the calculations don't include is the convenience of being able to fill-up at home, driving how I want, and the conversation-quality of doing such a conversion...not to mention boasting that my Mile/$ would be better than a Prius and a hell of a lot more powerful.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I discovered a hidden cost to NatGas that I never noticed before until I started looking at my bill and asking questions. Some of this info may be specific to my area, but it may be true for others as well.

Since the deregulation of NatGas back in the 90s, NatGas is delivered and the infrastructure maintained by a separate company than the company that actually bills you. In my area, Atlanta Gas Light (AGL) supplies the gas and maintains the NatGas system. However I get billed by my Marketer. My current Marketer is Georgia Natural Gas (GNG) and on my bill, I have a Base Charge that comes from AGL, GNG Customer Service, the charge for how much NatGas I used based on therms, and taxes.

The Base charge is the hidden charge that can go up based on usage. The way AGL calculates the base charge is complicated because it contains multiple things that don't change base on usage. But there is one component to it that does. Here's AGL's website explaining their calculation of base charges:
Guide to Atlanta Gas Light Charges

You'll want to look up your local supplier's charging method, but I expect it'll be similar. What AGL does is watch what your usage pattern is and adjust a value called the Dedicated Design Day Capacity (DDDC) value each year based on your peak usage for the year. Obviously with a refueling station, this would increase usage which would increase the base charge value that is separate from the charge based on therm usage. Although I can't imagine that the increase would be significant enough to be a deal-breaker.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Here's my idea for how to wire things up:
Let me know if anybody see's a problem. Something I'm considering is a 3rd relay that will kill the fuel pump when in CNG mode. I don't really see a reason in wearing out the fuel pump as well as circulating the fuel in the tank to the engine bay just to get heated and return to the fuel tank. The only concern I have is that without the pressure in the rails, the fuel will heat up, boil off, and eventually leave the rail dry. I don't' know if that is a valid concern or not. It's not like oxygenated air will fill the void. But it is a condition that would never happen under gas-only conditions.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I don't think fuel boil is a concern really. It's possible it will happen, but when you repressurize the system (ie fuel pump back on) you'll have liquid fuel there again. If there is vapor there with the pump off, it won't be under pressure, as pumps/regulators usually leak down to 0psi over time, so I don't think there's really any hazard there. But I don't know what temp is required for gasoline vapor to spontaneously combust.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

I wouldn't be worried about spontaneous combustion purely because there wouldn't be a way for air to get into the rail with the fuel. So the fuel couldn't burn...same reason the fire doesn't go up the tube when you light a flame on your gas grill. The flame can only exist where there's both fuel and air. Up the tube is only fuel.

I was more concerned with whether fuel vapor (in specific ethanol vapor) would be more corrosive than liquid vapor and thus rot out the lines. That's probably being overly paranoid. But I thought I'd bring it up to get other people's thoughts.

BTW, nobody's commented on why the 2nd resistor in the diagram. Is it just obvious or should I explain?

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

My CNG conversion kit finally came in. I haven't gone through it extensively, but it looks like everything is there that I expected to be there. I didn't find a fitting to go on my tank valve though. So I'll need to get with them about where I get a fitting to go from the tank valve to a stainless line.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I've got some pics of the CNG conversion kit. And I've got a problem.

Here's the Injector Rail. There are 2 of these. Anybody recognize this Injector Connection?





Here's 1 of 8 brass fittings that screw into holes you drill-n-tap into your intake. A rubber hose runs from the fuel rails to these taps that screw into the intake:


Here's the Pressure Reducer/Regulator. There are 2 of these in the kit, one for each injector rail. Notice the gauge. That gauge also appears to be a sending unit that the CNG computer would monitor if you bought the kit that included a computer. However I'm thinking I can power it, and run the feedback to a DataQ for monitoring.







CNG flow shutoff valve. When the ignition is OFF or engine running on gasoline, this valve shuts off the pressure from the tank to the system.



High Pressure CNG tubing from the CNG tank to the regulators:




This is the quick-connect refueling valve. This is what the refueling station's hose will connect with to refill the CNG tank.


Loose Parts that also came in the kit.




The kit also came with a bunch of rubber hoses, but I didn't feel the need to show all of them. They are just various size rubber hoses not unlike any other rubber hose you've ever seen. There are a number of other sensors such as MAP, ACT, ECT, and an LED readout that would mount on the dash. All these would be used if I'd bought the CNG computer. I wish I could've bought the kit without all this, but the distributor was only willing to go so far to break down the kit. Perhaps in the future, he'll consider a DIY tuner CNG kit that will not include all the extra stuff but will include the things we need such as the 8ohm resistors and relays.

Now the problem I've run into is that my CNG tank valve has fittings that don't accept stainless tubing like this. And the kit didn't include any kind of fitting that would adapt the valve to accept stainless line. I'm currently pestering the distributor with how I'm going to overcome this. I'm sure it's just a matter of finding someone that makes a fitting to do this. The question is who sells such a thing.

Here's what the valve's fittings look like:



Here's what the matching fitting that goes on that valve fitting looks like:

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I researched a bit and found out what it is that I need. The short answer is I need is a High Pressure Stainless tube Compression-to-Thread adapter. If only it were that simple...

These CNG conversion kits are made in China and assume you'll be using a metric tank, which would get a metric valve. The metric valves for passenger vehicle use let you thread metric compression fittings right into them like all the other components in the kit:


However the tank I bought from Energy&Water Solutions is an American made Lincoln Composites Type 4 cylinder which uses imperial (aka fractional) threads. Add to that, the threads you see on my valve are for an imperial compression fitting. If those are removed, the valve has standard 1/4" female threads in the head. So the adapter I need must accept 6X1 (6mm OD x 1mm thick) stainless tubing on one side and have a male 1/4" NPT fitting to thread to the valve on the other.

Picture courtesy of Cole-Parmer.

For my application, I need 2 of these adapters since the valve has 2 outputs on it. The tank seller sells them for $20 each with $10 s/h. I believe Cole-Parmer probably sells them for cheaper, but I felt better buying them from someone that knows what I plan to do with them. Richard Barnes at Energy&Water Solutions is easy to work with and I don't mind paying him the extra money, which BTW the difference was less than $10. Richard did tell me that if I'd bought the kit from him, they would've been free. But his SEFI kits were CONSIDERABLY more expensive than the kit I got for what appears to be the same exact components. Richard also pushes the CNG mixer conversions and I didn't want the performance hit mixer kits introduce. I also wanted to reuse the Ford EEC and the SEFI kit allows for that with much greater ease. So I bought the kit from another distributor, Ace Sales & Beyond. Their prices are good, but their customer support leaves a lot to be desired comparatively speaking...

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

good progress, hope you can figure out what's needed to get everything mated up.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

i personally think you'd been better off just running 87 octane with meth injection, thats what i do on my cars and their supercharged with 15+ lbs of boost, i still manage 31mpg's leaned out to 1.16 lambda

Perhaps, but this has been a fun project...certainly unique. Trail blazing has its share of bumps, but it also has its share of learning experiences too. It's not a done-deal yet. I'm sure there's unforeseeable headaches to come...possibly some that could cause me to regret my decision to attempt this. But so far, the pieces are coming together.


Another thing that'll make this venture payoff quicker is there's a bill coming up in Congress to increase the federal gas tax by $1/gal, heavily supported by the CEO of GM. Right now, federal tax is 18.3¢/gal and hasn't been upped since 1993. Some in Congress believe it's long since due to be upped. I personally believe gov't wastes too much of the money they get and cuts are needed far more than loading more tax burden on the economy. Add to this, our commander-n-chief hasn't been a big friend to the energy market. He made the statement prior to his becoming president that under cap-n-trade, electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket. While gasoline isn't electricity, it is a form of energy and so it's not a stretch to conclude that there are those in Congress that supported cap-n-trade would also support a $1/gal gas tax hike...particularly representatives that are heavily supported by the auto and ethanol industry. Raising gas prices nearing an election year probably isn't popular, so I doubt it'll pass on its own. But it wouldn't surprise me if the dems get it slipped by via a deal with republicans to get a gradual gas tax hike in trade for some deficit reductions in the budget (something the republicans want). As this becomes a political discussion, I should probably shut up there. But point is if gas taxes do go up, and I suspect they will, that just makes the payback of a CNG conversion with home-refueling that much faster.

Looking forward past 2012, you got 2 scenarios.

• Obama wins and he's completely untethered to a re-election to care what people think of him so he will have the freedom to run rampant particularly if he has either the senate or house supporting him. So if we don't get taxes now, we'll likely get them then.
• New leadership gets into Congress and the White House. That may or may not fix the economy. But lets just say they are successful at improving the economy. Even if they are friends to the energy industry, that likely won't hold prices down. A booming economy is going to need fuel to support more people working, more things being shipped, more business travel will be done, and more Air Conditioned buildings being occupied. In an economy boom like that, gas prices will rise purely based on supply-n-demand. This could also mean an increase in the cost of NatGas, but NatGas has NEVER been as high, on a BTU/$ basis as gasoline or anywhere near it.

Regardless of what happens, it's a pretty good bet that gas prices are going up in the relatively near future via taxes, economics, or both. I don't care if you agree with me politically. I'm not looking to start a political debate in this thread. I'm just stating my rationale for doing a CNG conversion. I'm not saying I'm right...I don't own a future-telling crystal ball. I'm not trying to persuade others to follow in my footsteps. However for those that are intrigued by the idea of a CNG conversion and also would consider it but know nothing about what it entails, I want to share as much of what I've learned so others can make an informed decision about what the real costs and technical hurdles are and have examples of how to solve them.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I think I just found a "snag". The MAP sensor has 2 taps and 4 wires. This suggests the CNG computer monitors both the manifold pressure as well as the fuel rail pressure and that got me to thinking about why. And then it dawned on me. While the high pressure CNG regulators work similar to a gasoline FPR, they are not exactly the same. Unlike with an FPR, the CNG regulator can't "dump" fuel when the pressure in the rail is too high. In cases where the engine goes from heavy load to closed throttle, the manifold vacuum drops substantially. In a gasoline system, this would cause the FPR to dump fuel through the FPR to drop the rail pressure in an effort to keep the differential pressure across the injectors the same. However the CNG regulator's can't dump. They rely on the injectors injecting to "dump" when the pressure is higher than intended such as going from near-no vacuum (WOT) to deep vacuum (Closed Throttle). At Closed Throttle, the injector PWs are small, so the rate of "dump" is small so depending on how much gas is in the line between the regulators and rails, it could take a while to equalize the pressure to where it is supposed to be. Add to this, the tap on the NatGas fuel rail also has a temp sensor in it. My guess is the CNG computer takes differential pressure across the injectors as well as gas temperature into account when calculating the Injector PWs.

The Ford EEC can probably be hacked to use the BAP as a MAP. And the code could probably also be hacked to use the ACT input as the FP sensor input IF the FP sensor is voltage-based. But if it is frequency based like Ford's MAP/BAP sensors, there's not another frequency monitor that.

So...is there a workaround? I don't know. My knee-jerk reaction was to use the transient tables. But transient tables are near guesswork for gasoline, I can't imagine they are going to do any better with a setup like this. This could be either a nothing issue or it could be the thing that makes me wish I'd never considered trying to get the Ford EEC to do the NatGas fuel work.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I really don't think that's going to be an issue. Your manifold vacuum isn't going to effect your line pressure. You may have a pressure spike when letting off the throttle, but only because more fuel has been flowing through, and when you drop then outbound flow decreases, and if the regulator doesn't react quickly enough, then you'll get a pressure spike. But I really don't think this will be a major issue, and could only cause the engine to go slightly over-rich on tipout (i think that's right). But I really don't think the regulator will need to dump pressure like you thinking, since it'll never let more than say 40psi through to the rails. Remember you're regulator is before the rails, not after like most gasoline ones.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

The over-pressure condition will be very temporary. And you are right, it'll just make tip-out conditions rich which, from what I recall about the stock tune was kind of the expectation anyway. So hopefully it'll be a moot issue. It's just a little unsettling to know the CNG computer was monitoring both manifold and rail pressure as well as rail temperature where the Ford (MAF-based) EEC won't monitor any of those.

We'll see what comes of it...

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

I got the fittings EWS today. And let me reiterate my satisfaction with dealing with them. They know what they are doing and ship fast. So here's what I got...

This fitting goes in the valve after removing those fittings shown way above on the CNG valve:


Here I show my CNG Tank Valve with 1 side blocked off and the other side with a conversion fitting. The plug is a standard 1/4" SOLID plug. The plugs sold at Lowes are hollowed-out and not recommended for use on high pressure applications like this:


Here's the valve with both converter fittings in it:


I bought 2 converters as well as a plug because I envisioned putting the refueling valve on one side of the tank valve and the regulator supply line on the other. That would make mounting the refueling valve at/near the rear bumper more convenient and without the need of another expensive T-fitting. But I suspect I don't have enough stainless tubing to run tubing from the rear bumper, into the bed, back down and to the front of the truck where the regulators will be mounted to the frame. But I wanted the option so I bought 2 converter fittings.

If I do use both converters on the CNG tank valve, then I'd need to plug one side of the refueling valve. So I got this plug for doing just that:


Here's the refueling valve with that plug blocking one side:



The most annoying thing about this CNG conversion kit is there are OBVIOUSLY missing parts. The most obvious piece left out is the T-fitting required to split the stainless tubing from the tank to two regulators. I can't understand how this kit got put together and didn't include this necessary T-fitting. If I lived in a foreign country, it wouldn't be a big deal to find these metric fittings, but here in the US, metric fittings just are not readily available. Next time you are in Lowes, try to find metric fittings in the brass plumbing fittings area. So getting metric fittings like this aren't going to be cheap for that reason alone, but these are high pressure metric fittings which jacks their price up even more. I wish I'd bought 2 T-fittings, but those things are pricy. I also got a union so if I need to put a break in the line somewhere, I can join two tubes together. Here are the fittings:

I don't feel I should have had to buy this fitting in the 1st place. But since I had to buy other fittings from EWS, I went ahead and got it just in case Ace Sales continues to be a PITA about making this right. So far, they've been absolutely unresponsive on this issue. I haven't gotten an apology for the inconvenience nor a we'll-make-this-right. Just silence. I can barely get them to admit that this is a problem.

The other major oversight to this CNG conversion kit is that it includes 2 regulators, but only 1 pressure gauge. Both regulators are identical and have a pressure gauge provision, so the only outstanding issue that I have is I need to plug the additional gauge provision on the 2nd regulator. To add to the annoyance, the gauge fitting is different than the compression fittings so I can't use a plug like I show above in the refueling valve. And what I can't seem to find is a plug for this fitting. Here's what it looks like. Unlike a compression fitting, this fitting has a flat-bottom:


Here's the gauge that threads into that fitting. Notice the flat area on the bottom of the gauge that "crushes" into the flat bottom of the regulator fitting:


Interestingly, whatever thread that is happens to be VERY similar to the thread of a standard 1/4" plug. A 1/4" plug will thread in about 2-2.5 threads, then it binds. What I don't know is if it binds because one is a metric thread and the other is a standard thread or if it binds because the 1/4" plug is a taper-thread, not a straight thread. If push came to shove, I could probably use a 1/4" plug, but I'm not comfortable with 3600 PSI pushing against a plug that's holding on by only 2 threads. That just doesn't sound safe. So if a proper plug can't be found, I'm pushing for Ace Sales to get me another gauge or find a proper plug. I don't feel I should have to buy a gauge since this, like the T-fitting above, should've come with the kit. You CAN'T complete the installation of this dual-regulator kit without these missing pieces.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Just curious here, but why do you feel you *need* 2 pressure regulators? I understand that the kit came with 2, and that there is one for each rail, but do you really think it's necessary? Do you think 1 would be insufficient at allowing enough flow through for both banks? To me, from a safety standpoint, I'd think the closer you could put your regulator to the tank the better, high pressure line is more likely to rupture (and leakdown more quickly) than low pressure line (granted probably not a problem, but still). This would also create a bigger "well" between the regulator and injectors, with the higher volume in the line making pressure changes less dramatic. There are obviously both positives and negatives to doing this, but i don't think the negatives would be enough to prevent this setup. IE you may need to tweak and runnin a little higher pressure, etc.

Just a thought, rather than spending more money if you don't have to

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

The regulators are rated for up to 140kw (~180hp). Since even my stock 302 would exceed that, I technically need 2. How how much hp 1 regulator will actually support? I don't know. If I had to guess, 1 would probably be OK for up to around 200hp. However the 331 I'm building should be flirting with 300hp, if not exceeding that. Your point is taken though. No high RPM WOT pulls and 1 regulator would probably be OK.

BTW, I got more information on the gauge's threads. The threads are G1/4. G1/4 is a British Standard Pipe (BSP) thread...in specific a straight, parallel, or cylindrical thread (BSPP) as opposed to BSPT which is a BSP taper thread. American pipe thread fittings adhere to a standard known as National Pipe Taper (NPT) or National Pipe Standard (NPS). So what's the difference between the two? Here's a website that explains that (if you care):
NPT vs BSP

In short, a standard 1/4" NPT plug threads into the gauge provision on the reduer/regulator because of the similarity in size. But the threads bind because 1/4" NPT is 18 threads per inch (TPI) and 1/4" BSP is 19 TPI.

So, I've located a source for a BSPP 1/4" plug. In fact, a friend from the UK is actually getting it for me and mailing it over to me:


Notice the area between the threads and head...that's where an O-ring needs to go.

Here's a similar part from McMaster Carr:

McMaster Carr 4936K177 BSPP Plug for $3.33 each...but no O-ring provision for some reason.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Good deal on the plugs. If your source falls though, my buddy will be back in London in a couple weeks.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

The plug actually came in yesterday. It fits. So I'm in business.

I'm still waiting on the CNG compressor and the engine. The CNG compressor was sold with the understanding that it could take 6 weeks or longer since they are built-to-order in China...not a stock item. And considering how expensive they are, I understand why particularly given the people that sell CNG conversions are mom-n-pop type organizations that do this on the side of an existing business or just because they believe in it. That's nice in that we, here in the states, get access to equipment we wouldn't otherwise be able to get. But it sucks because these people aren't exactly interested in spending a lot of time with you answering your every question (and I ask a Lot of questions). They don't get back via email very fast either.

Interestingly, EWS is now selling refueling stations. When I bought mine, they only sold the kits. They also sell the American brand Fuelmaker. The one I bought is a Newtech Chinese brand. For all I know, the Fuelmaker refueling stations are also made in China.

Bottom line is, I've got a battle plan on almost every aspect of the install. I just gotta get an engine to install it on and the refueling station to filler-up with.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

awesome, get to work

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

BTW, I found another supplier for CNG high pressure fittings for use with stainless steel tubing. So if anybody is looking for fitting sources, here's another option from a company named Diversified Controls Inc.

Hylok 1/4" BSP Parallel thread hex plug
PN# H-SPC-4G-S316SS
$3.07

Hylok 6mm Compression Tube Tee
PN# CTA-6MM-316SS
$17.87

Hylok 6mm Compression Tube Union
PN# CUA-6MM-316SS
$8.65

Hylok doesn't make a metric plug to block off a compression fitting.

Here's Diversified Control's contact info:
PH: (770) 932-5844
FX: (770) 932-6244
Web Site: http://www.dvccon.com

The person I worked with was David Buford (dave@diversifiedcontrolsinc.com).

These are some of the best prices for these fittings I've been able to find. My hope is that others looking to do a CNG conversion come across this thread and get saved a huge headache looking for these relatively hard to come by pieces to the puzzle.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Hi Chris! I'm just catching up here. I have long thought of doing this as well. Although I am firmly believing just as I predicted in 2008 and called crazy even then, that gasoline will no doubt breach the $1 mark very soon. However it will go back up. The national low in 2008 was $.99 cents during the holidays. It was $1.26 here locally. People in July 2008 thought I was insane when I made my pre-holiday prediction. Well Americans don't ride around in $50K suv's hauling home 50 inch plasma TV's, drinking $4 coffee AND paying $4 a gallon....

Something had to give and it DID. GM collapsed as well as many auto suppliers. Many became penny stocks over night and were dropped from their listings! Even the DOW Jones had a dollar menu to choose from. You could get 5 companies for a freaking $5 bill or less at times.

Starbucks tanked but has since recovered but CompUSA, Circuit City (50 inch plasma TV sales) all went by by. Here we are again. The sub prime mess was blamed. We are discovering that it was just a symptom as I believed it was in 2008.

The BIG THREE is not GM, Ford and Chrysler. It's DOW Chemical, BASF, DuPont. Why? Because they produce distillates in everything you touch. Your cell phone, your keyboard, hair dryer, blender, toaster, etc... In the 1930's your average car had 25lbs of plastics. Today over 500lbs.

The baltic dry index has collapsed. (Measures Global shipping) Click the 5 year chart.... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BDIY:IND

Rail traffic is down and distillate demand is down to collapse levels..... Google those terms. Look at www.fdic.gov or www.bankimplode.com and see what no one is talking about!!

So yes, CNG is one of the things we ALL need to get on and develop. I have a 1988 F150 I can throw into a project. I only paid $600 for a nice running shortbed pickup. It's speed density but a good platform for this. I need to get up to speed and I have some funds to throw at this project.



We are going to see massive infrastructure spending on CNG soon. Mark that and take it to the bank. It's our only way out of this drain on our economy.

_________________
90Stang Kenne Bell/ ExplorerGT40P/HOCAM/1.7RR/36lbinj/ 5spd -CBAZA
06Stang 4.0 dual exhaust. Stock.
QH/BE/LC-1 and moates.com chips
http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s247/patrickmx2/
http://www.eecanalyzer.net/

I'm confused. So are you interested in doing your own CNG conversion? If so, reading over everything I've learned here will fast-track you into know what all doesn't come in a CNG Conversion kit that's advertised to be "Everything you need to convert your vehicle." Although I wouldn't recommend trying to get a Ford EEC to control it. I'd use the CNG computer that comes with the kit and wire it in like most people would. It's still to be determined if using a Ford EEC to control the NatGas delivery is feasible or doable.

Another addition to the list of things I needed was more CNG high pressure tubing. The kits come with 6 meters (just shy of 20 feet) of the 6mm steel tubing. That is probably enough for a car, but I'm looking at mounting my refueling nozzle near the tag on the back bumper, mounting the tank in the bed, and mounting the regulators on the frame up near the engine bay which ended up being way more than 6 meters length. I looked all over trying to find someone that sells this stuff for a reasonable price. Most of the Google searches end up with Chinese or other foreign sources that only want to sell in bulk. I only need an additional 6 meters of the stuff. So through what seems like hours of scouring around the Internet, I finally found a source for this stuff:
Omnitek Corp
They sell the high pressure metric CNG tubing for ~$20+s/h.

So if you are looking to install a kit like this on a truck and also want to mount the refueling quick-disconnect nozzle on the bumper, you'll likely need another coil of that tubing along with most of the fittings, and plugs mentioned above.

I'm still waiting on the NatGas compressor. It turns out, EWS is also selling refueling compressors, but their prices aren't quite as low as Ace Sales & Beyond. However they are selling the more popularly known Fuelmaker brand refueling compressors. I have no clue if they are any better, but they do seem to be the "legitimate" CNG compressor for people that own EPA approved CNG vehicles like the Honda Civic GX. But even they warn right on their website that lead times are upwards of 10 weeks due to high demand.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Yes. I think it's going to be widespread in the coming years.

For 2012 Honda has officially made it's CNG Civic available to all 50 states. I think Ford will be another surprise leader in this market. Shell will probably be a top tier CNG contributor to the infrastructure as well from what I have been seeing the last few months.

If Obama will send us all a $1500 rebate "bailout" check it would be a step in the right direction. However I think who ever gets elected in 2012 will use this lever in their campaign.

_________________
90Stang Kenne Bell/ ExplorerGT40P/HOCAM/1.7RR/36lbinj/ 5spd -CBAZA
06Stang 4.0 dual exhaust. Stock.
QH/BE/LC-1 and moates.com chips
http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s247/patrickmx2/
http://www.eecanalyzer.net/

Chris, Just another thought I has, more installation related, is that if you're going to mount this stuff in the bed, you may want to fabricate up some sort of housing to enclose everything in. Something like a square tube frame and sheet metal to keep it all enclosed and protected from both the elements and potential tampering. Not that I think either are a major concern, but still probably a good idea.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

I thought about making some kind of plastic or sheet metal cover just to go over the tank. But I haven't given much thought as to exactly how that should work or look yet. I just assumed once I got it installed and working, I could worry about that then.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

yep, was just kindof a side thought. I wouldn't be as worried about the tank as the regulators and such.

_________________
1978 Mustang II King Cobra
89 5.0HO, Stock Short Block, Edelbrock 4bbl aluminum intake, Holley 650 double pumper, MSD 6AL, Ford F303 cam, 1.7:1 Crane Roller Rockers, Pocket Ported stock heads, Hedman Long Tube Headers
5 spd Manual
Full roll cage, 9" full floater w/Currie trac lock/373 gears, RCI Fuel Cell
Project Page: http://www.brandttuning.com/projects.htm

The regulators will get mounted somewhere up near the engine bay. Currently, I'm thinking they'll be mounted on the frame rail. But I've also toyed with the idea of moving the battery to the bed or under the bed and bolting the regulators right down to what's currently the battery pan.

_________________
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com