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 Post subject: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:02 pm 
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I have just finished installing my new engine in my 91 GT. I am having major issues and cannot for the life of me figure it out.

My build:
DART sportsman block
D1SC Procharger with intercooler
SCAT internals
Forged Pistons
MSD dizzy set at 10 BTDC
90 MM Lighting Mass Air
90 MM ACCUFAB TB
mechanical water pump
Aerometer A1000 complete fuel system(Sump, pump, fuel rails, regulator set @40#) with 60# injectors
NJK plugs @ 35
Electric fan
MSD ignition box
TFS racing High port heads
TFS Intake
Super comp long tubes


Here is the issue.
Configured my tune using the tutorials (scalars and functions) on YouTube that was applicable to the 9al tune
http://www.youtube.com/user/tweecer
The car can idle but runs very lean and when you give it throttle it kicks more than a 2 year old leaving Toys-R-Us. It has a searching idle and I have the set screw full just to idle
It also has no vacuum. The lean condition and no vacuum sometimes means a vacuum leak but I have done the starter fluid and tried the cigar trick (smoke) and cannot find a leak( car has no exhaust so I cannot hear one). I did get it up to 2k and there was some vacuum for a brief second. I will be pulling the codes (throws a code a few seconds after the car starts) after this weekend but if anyone has any thoughts please let me know. I can upload my tune and data log if that helps

Thanks,
Lance

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91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Fix the mechanical issues first, then start tuning. If it has no vacuum, then something is wrong. Fix that first.

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1990 Mark VII Twin T3's JYTT--60# --stock block 306, HCI--AOD 3400stall--A3M1--Moates QH -- BE/EA
1989 Mark VII S/C 6 speed. HCI--42#--Vortech--Anderson B31--LT's--All the goodies--QH -- BE/EA
1987 Buick GN 61mm, ported heads/intake, other stuff...`
2002 Lightning -- Whipple @24#, 60s, LTs, SBTB, 3400stall, Everything Else....


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Location: Chicagoland
Once you fix the mechanical issues and get it to run ok you will probably peg the LMAF.

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1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., SCT BA2400, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Location: Marlboro, NJ. / Tampa, FL.
Procharger is designed to be a blow thru set up. Your lmaf is a draw thru meter and will not work. I would recommend a pmas 3" (depending on your tubing configuration) blow thru protube for your set up.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Posts: 22
EDS50 wrote:
Procharger is designed to be a blow thru set up. Your lmaf is a draw thru meter and will not work. I would recommend a pmas 3" (depending on your tubing configuration) blow thru protube for your set up.

Can you explain what the difference is? The Procharger setup recommends this setup(using a MAF) and I am confused why this will not work? I has the P600 on the stock engine with no problems

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:09 pm 
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cobra99 wrote:
EDS50 wrote:
Procharger is designed to be a blow thru set up. Your lmaf is a draw thru meter and will not work. I would recommend a pmas 3" (depending on your tubing configuration) blow thru protube for your set up.

Can you explain what the difference is? The Procharger setup recommends this setup(using a MAF) and I am confused why this will not work? I has the P600 on the stock engine with no problems


Well first of all I assumed you had an intercooler installed on your car. If so then you have to have a blow thru meter. If not intercooled then in theory you can have a draw thru meter but the problem with that is your lmaf will most likely peg or max out as it will only support up to 360-380 hp. Procharger units are designed to be installed on the driver side on fox body cars and 99% of people will run the maf as a blow thru. I have never installed a draw thru or seen anyone use a draw thru with any procharger set ups and I have installed quite a few. The pmas protube is a maf and is designed to be placed in the stock location and meters the air as it is blown thru from the blower. A draw thru meter is the lmaf which gets installed before the blower head unit.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm
Posts: 22
EDS50 wrote:
cobra99 wrote:
EDS50 wrote:
Procharger is designed to be a blow thru set up. Your lmaf is a draw thru meter and will not work. I would recommend a pmas 3" (depending on your tubing configuration) blow thru protube for your set up.

Can you explain what the difference is? The Procharger setup recommends this setup(using a MAF) and I am confused why this will not work? I has the P600 on the stock engine with no problems


Well first of all I assumed you had an intercooler installed on your car. If so then you have to have a blow thru meter. If not intercooled then in theory you can have a draw thru meter but the problem with that is your lmaf will most likely peg or max out as it will only support up to 360-380 hp. Procharger units are designed to be installed on the driver side on fox body cars and 99% of people will run the maf as a blow thru. I have never installed a draw thru or seen anyone use a draw thru with any procharger set ups and I have installed quite a few. The pmas protube is a maf and is designed to be placed in the stock location and meters the air as it is blown thru from the blower. A draw thru meter is the lmaf which gets installed before the blower head unit.



I am running the same intercooler (3 core 3 inch) off of the old SC and was using the stock MAF. Now the engine has completely changed and it seems I bought the wrong MAF.

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Location: Marlboro, NJ. / Tampa, FL.
cobra99 wrote:
EDS50 wrote:
cobra99 wrote:
EDS50 wrote:
Procharger is designed to be a blow thru set up. Your lmaf is a draw thru meter and will not work. I would recommend a pmas 3" (depending on your tubing configuration) blow thru protube for your set up.

Can you explain what the difference is? The Procharger setup recommends this setup(using a MAF) and I am confused why this will not work? I has the P600 on the stock engine with no problems


Well first of all I assumed you had an intercooler installed on your car. If so then you have to have a blow thru meter. If not intercooled then in theory you can have a draw thru meter but the problem with that is your lmaf will most likely peg or max out as it will only support up to 360-380 hp. Procharger units are designed to be installed on the driver side on fox body cars and 99% of people will run the maf as a blow thru. I have never installed a draw thru or seen anyone use a draw thru with any procharger set ups and I have installed quite a few. The pmas protube is a maf and is designed to be placed in the stock location and meters the air as it is blown thru from the blower. A draw thru meter is the lmaf which gets installed before the blower head unit.



I am running the same intercooler (3 core 3 inch) off of the old SC and was using the stock MAF. Now the engine has completely changed and it seems I bought the wrong MAF.


I am afraid so. But look at it this way, at least you asked before you pushed out a head gasket or worse.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm
Posts: 22
Attachment:
91 MUSTANG.CCF [24.23 KiB]
Downloaded 78 times
Ok ordered a pmas so that should fix the MAF issue.

Unhooked the lightning MAF and put in the stock one for now. Scan the codes and am getting a 23(TPS) and 56(MAF) and I have some vacuum. The thing is running lean 28-29 on both banks. how do I fatten this up?

I have added my tune and log files.

Thanks for the help


Attachments:
120523200945.DB [798 KiB]
Downloaded 81 times
120523200749.DB [266 KiB]
Downloaded 88 times

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


Last edited by cobra99 on Wed May 23, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm
Posts: 22
here is my tune


Attachments:
120523185059.DB [4 KiB]
Downloaded 116 times
91 MUSTANG.CCF [24.23 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans
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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:43 pm
Posts: 46
i didnt realize a wideband could read upwards of 28 ish, wouldnt the engine just kill it self cause of lack of fuel around 20sh ?

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1992 Fox A9L GUFB 2005 up maf/inj 347 heads cam, holley systemax, long tubes, and a bunch of shiny stuff


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm
Posts: 22
brewster wrote:
i didnt realize a wideband could read upwards of 28 ish, wouldnt the engine just kill it self cause of lack of fuel around 20sh ?

the 28 is from my O2. I am still tuning in my wideband. it was saying 1 since I didn't change it yet

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 22
Fixed the TPS issue and check the MAF and made sure it is working. I think this is a tune issue and it is still running lean. Not as bad as before. I will get a log and attach in a bit. Any ideas on adding fuel? I am still learning this tuning thing 8) .

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:27 pm 
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cobra99 wrote:
Fixed the TPS issue and check the MAF and made sure it is working. I think this is a tune issue and it is still running lean. Not as bad as before. I will get a log and attach in a bit. Any ideas on adding fuel? I am still learning this tuning thing 8) .


You can add fuel by the injector slopes and or maf curve by increasing or decreasing the kg/hr values. If you multiply the kg/hr by 1.05 you will be richening by 5%. Multiply by o.95 will lean it 5%. What you are wanting to do is match your afr to whatever your commanding you base open loop lambse to be. Make sure you disable adaptive learning, force open loop and clear the kamrf. Set your injector settings for the 60#'s and multiply the entire maf kg/hr values by say 20% just for the heck of it and see how she responds.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
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EDS50 wrote:
cobra99 wrote:
Fixed the TPS issue and check the MAF and made sure it is working. I think this is a tune issue and it is still running lean. Not as bad as before. I will get a log and attach in a bit. Any ideas on adding fuel? I am still learning this tuning thing 8) .


You can add fuel by the injector slopes and or maf curve by increasing or decreasing the kg/hr values. If you multiply the kg/hr by 1.05 you will be richening by 5%. Multiply by o.95 will lean it 5%. What you are wanting to do is match your afr to whatever your commanding you base open loop lambse to be. Make sure you disable adaptive learning, force open loop and clear the kamrf. Set your injector settings for the 60#'s and multiply the entire maf kg/hr values by say 20% just for the heck of it and see how she responds.

Played around with the MAF transfer and I got only bank one down 10-12 Bank two is still lean and I am 100% confused. I swapped the O2 sensors to make sure it wasn't a bad sensor. here is my latest log.


Attachments:
120524160601.DB [272 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times

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91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans
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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Also wanted to add I pulled the plugs on 1 and 5 and they were both black (rich) so I am getting mixed signals.

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91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:14 am 
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ive never had a problem with blow or draw

sounds like your rockers need to be adjusted

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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:22 am 
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decipha wrote:
ive never had a problem with blow or draw

sounds like your rockers need to be adjusted


Procharger intercooled supercharger kits are disigned to be used with a blow thru maf set up. I am not ruling our the valve adjustment but draw thru on a intercooled Procharger is a no no.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:35 am 
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Location: New Orleans, LA
I have been known to exceed manufacturers recommended design specifications from time to time

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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:45 am 
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decipha wrote:
I have been known to exceed manufacturers recommended design specifications from time to time


So have I, but not knowingly with a Intercooled Procharger. Draw thru just doesnt work. Act temps fluctuate too much between the head unit and intercooler. You will never get the tune right using a draw thru in that configuration.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:00 pm 
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EDS50 wrote:
decipha wrote:
ive never had a problem with blow or draw

sounds like your rockers need to be adjusted


Procharger intercooled supercharger kits are disigned to be used with a blow thru maf set up. I am not ruling our the valve adjustment but draw thru on a intercooled Procharger is a no no.


I couldn't get the thing to run and the rpm would jump to 3k ( this was with the MAF open to air and not using the SC tract).

I have installed the PMAS in the uptube coming from my intercooler and it is idling and it's varies between 13.5 to 14.5 so I'm good to go. I had to order a new BPV valve since the stock Procharger one will not open at 3 inches of vacuum(going with the Big red) and and I had throttle issues(throttle would continue for a few extra seconds after releasing the pedal). The Stock valve would not open and bleed off the extra air. I also had to install a vacuum pump to run my booster.

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:02 pm 
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decipha wrote:
ive never had a problem with blow or draw

sounds like your rockers need to be adjusted

valves were adjusted to 10 thousands. Thought that was my vacuum issue. The issue was a very lumpy cam with OL :lol: .

_________________
91 GT
347 Sportsman Block, Scat internals, TFS R heads and intake, Aeromotive sumped fuel system, D1sc Procharger, 90 MM ACCUFAB TB, 90 MM lightning MA, Electric Fan, 60 #, Tweecer with Innovate LC-1 WB and TKO 600 Trans


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 Post subject: Re: Tuning a 347
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:11 pm 
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cobra99 wrote:
EDS50 wrote:
decipha wrote:
ive never had a problem with blow or draw

sounds like your rockers need to be adjusted


Procharger intercooled supercharger kits are disigned to be used with a blow thru maf set up. I am not ruling our the valve adjustment but draw thru on a intercooled Procharger is a no no.


I couldn't get the thing to run and the rpm would jump to 3k ( this was with the MAF open to air and not using the SC tract).

I have installed the PMAS in the uptube coming from my intercooler and it is idling and it's varies between 13.5 to 14.5 so I'm good to go. I had to order a new BPV valve since the stock Procharger one will not open at 3 inches of vacuum(going with the Big red) and and I had throttle issues(throttle would continue for a few extra seconds after releasing the pedal). The Stock valve would not open and bleed off the extra air. I also had to install a vacuum pump to run my booster.


Good to hear the MAF I recommended worked out for you. I also replaced my stock Procharger bypass with a BigRed when I had that set up; plus I was running 20#s.

_________________
1989 GT - 25th Anniversary 5.0, Vortech S-Trim, TFS Trackheat Heads & Intake, TFS Stage 1 Cam, FRPP 1.6 RR, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm, Anderson Power Pipe, FRPP 42#s, GS-340/255 lph pump, Anderson 1-3/4 shorties, 3" Borla Exhaust, Tremec T-5, 3.73-31 spline, MSD 6AL2, complete-lowered suspension A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4, BE, EA, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.

1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Renegade 317, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf,A3M1, Moates QH/SL v1.6/1.4 BE, EA


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