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- cgrey8
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331's in and running, but...
As the title says, I finally got to a point where I can crank the truck. It amazingly cranked on the 302 tune although it was BAD rich. As soon as I realized what I was doing, I got the 331 starter tune in it with better Injector Slope/BP/Offset info in. It ran much better, but still with issues. Next, I timed it and that dropped the idle down a good bit, but it's still idling high...really high. The idle screw is backed out all the way and the throttle isn't sitting on the screw, so I figured the air was getting in somewhere else. So I squeezed the PCV and CANP hoses. Both dropped the idle lower. But not massively lower. Although it is enough of an idle RPM change that I'm thinking I'll be disabling the CANP and somehow crimp the PCV hose so it doesn't pull so much.
But where else would air be coming from? I'm fairly sure it is coming in through the MAF because the MAF is reading around 30kg/hr and on the old engine, the idle was in the 15-17kg/hr range at 600RPMs.
But the real head scratcher for me is something I've only seen on other people's datalogs. My HEGOs don't go perfectly lean. They float just above 0v on lean switches and when they switch rich, they switch WAY rich. With the 302, I had it switching between 0-.5v consistently. And when it switched, I never heard any change in idle. However as the switches happen on this engine, I can hear the engine rise and lower in RPM. It may just be me, but there seems to be a significant delay in HEGO response. They bounce around and appear responsive, it's as though it's taking longer for EEC changes to make it to the HEGOs. I would've expected that behavior if I converted from shorty headers to long tubes, but I didn't. It's the same exact headers I ran on the 302. I increased the HEGO delay and that slowed down the switches, but didn't eliminate the RPM change.
Another note is I can get the engine to drop in RPM by retarding the timing. The next thing I'm going to try is to drop the timing way back to where I can get the RPMs into a low 600-650ish idle and see what the MAF reads then. If its back in the range I expect it to be, then at least I'm back into some familiar zone.
BTW, all this has just been with the engine idling. I haven't driven it yet. There's a few other things I've got to work out before I can drive it. But it's getting close...real close.
But where else would air be coming from? I'm fairly sure it is coming in through the MAF because the MAF is reading around 30kg/hr and on the old engine, the idle was in the 15-17kg/hr range at 600RPMs.
But the real head scratcher for me is something I've only seen on other people's datalogs. My HEGOs don't go perfectly lean. They float just above 0v on lean switches and when they switch rich, they switch WAY rich. With the 302, I had it switching between 0-.5v consistently. And when it switched, I never heard any change in idle. However as the switches happen on this engine, I can hear the engine rise and lower in RPM. It may just be me, but there seems to be a significant delay in HEGO response. They bounce around and appear responsive, it's as though it's taking longer for EEC changes to make it to the HEGOs. I would've expected that behavior if I converted from shorty headers to long tubes, but I didn't. It's the same exact headers I ran on the 302. I increased the HEGO delay and that slowed down the switches, but didn't eliminate the RPM change.
Another note is I can get the engine to drop in RPM by retarding the timing. The next thing I'm going to try is to drop the timing way back to where I can get the RPMs into a low 600-650ish idle and see what the MAF reads then. If its back in the range I expect it to be, then at least I'm back into some familiar zone.
BTW, all this has just been with the engine idling. I haven't driven it yet. There's a few other things I've got to work out before I can drive it. But it's getting close...real close.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
Re: 331's in and running, but...
I idle around 27 in neutral at 704 RPM and around 28 in drive at 648. Did about the same when I had the stock meter in too.
Stock meter curve bottom's out at 14ish. Sounds like the old combo might have had a leak that wasn't read by the meter. I'd think you'd be in CEL territory reading that low (stock tune wise)
Stock meter curve bottom's out at 14ish. Sounds like the old combo might have had a leak that wasn't read by the meter. I'd think you'd be in CEL territory reading that low (stock tune wise)
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
Re: 331's in and running, but...
Plus a tight new engine still breaking in, I would expect it working a little harder with higher numbers. Then probably have a leak adding more raising the RPMs
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
The MAF sensor is a slot style MAF in a 3" ID pipe putting it at almost the same curve as the stock GT curve that used this sensor.
I agree a new engine should be running a little harder as it breaks in. BTW, it is noticeably louder than the old engine is. Best I can figure is those forged pistons are just slapping around making a racket. A lot of the noise sounds like it is coming from the valve covers. It's possible the more aggressive cam is just more chatty than the stock cam. I don't have enough experience with various engine builds to know what the "new" noises are.
But to the point, with an engine that is more heavily loaded, I would expect the RPMs to be lower and thus requiring the IAC valve to open to let in more air so it would stay running due to the higher load. In my case, the IAC is at minimum. I can unplug it with no change so I know it is not getting in through the IAC...or at least I don't think it is. I do know when I 1st crank, the engine RPMs are higher and drop to where it idles due to the IAC being backed off. So, air is getting into the intake from somewhere other than the IAC. That's either directly through the TB or from some other source. Like I said, I know the PCV is flowing some of this air. The CANP was flowing some, but unplugging it fixed that.
What I don't know is if the higher RPM is simply creating enough higher vacuum to flow more through the MAF or what. I'll know more tomorrow when I tinker with the timing some more to force the engine down into the sub 700 RPM range and see what the airflow is then. But it might help to know what other engines run for spark advance at idle. The 302 idled in the 18-23 advance range. Increasing the spark advance didn't really seem to do much. With this engine, if I increase the advance just twisting the distributor, I get the thing idling as high as 1200 with nothing but adding timing. I have to pull timing just to get the RPMs to come down. When I pulled the SPOUT to set base timing to 10, the idle went down. With the SPOUT pulled, I could run the advance lower than 10 and it'd conk the engine out (don't recall exactly how much lower). I didn't notice what the RPMs were with the SPOUT pulled and set at 10. I'll find that out tomorrow.
The mechanical issues left to figure out is the clutch. The clutch isn't disengaging so I'll need to reset the clutch. This is a different clutch so it's not a surprise that it'd need readjusting. It might also need to be bled too. Note unlike normal hydraulic clutches, my setup isn't "auto" adjusting. Long story, if you are curious, I'll send you over to a thread explaining that. I haven't spent any time diagnosing that yet, so I'm not terribly concerned about why it isn't working...yet. But until that's sorted out, I can't drive it...not safely anyway.
As part of the swap, I discovered I have an exhaust leak in the pipe that has my WB. I pulled the WB for the swap and haven't installed it yet. I wanted to get the trans fluid that accidentally went down the exhaust pipe to burn out before I reinstalled it. But I'm not sure how much I'll be able to trust the WB now that I know that tiny exhaust leak is there. I might be able to cover the leak with some high temp silicone caulk. Even if it burns, the char may be enough to plug the leak until I can get it welded up properly and run the WB in the meantime. It can't hurt.
The thing that's just confusing the heck out of me is the RPM fluctuation with what appears to be small AFR changes during Closed Loop. I do recall at some point I played around with manifold filling numbers. And when they were set poorly with the 302, the engine did hunt. So those'll be numbers I'll play with as well once I get the thing driveable.
If there's anything else anybody can think of/suggest/recommend, I'm all ears (err eyes). Overall, I'm just glad I got the thing to crank and run with only about 2 cranks of the key. Now that it has a 331 tune in it, it cranks 1st turn of the key every time.
I agree a new engine should be running a little harder as it breaks in. BTW, it is noticeably louder than the old engine is. Best I can figure is those forged pistons are just slapping around making a racket. A lot of the noise sounds like it is coming from the valve covers. It's possible the more aggressive cam is just more chatty than the stock cam. I don't have enough experience with various engine builds to know what the "new" noises are.
But to the point, with an engine that is more heavily loaded, I would expect the RPMs to be lower and thus requiring the IAC valve to open to let in more air so it would stay running due to the higher load. In my case, the IAC is at minimum. I can unplug it with no change so I know it is not getting in through the IAC...or at least I don't think it is. I do know when I 1st crank, the engine RPMs are higher and drop to where it idles due to the IAC being backed off. So, air is getting into the intake from somewhere other than the IAC. That's either directly through the TB or from some other source. Like I said, I know the PCV is flowing some of this air. The CANP was flowing some, but unplugging it fixed that.
What I don't know is if the higher RPM is simply creating enough higher vacuum to flow more through the MAF or what. I'll know more tomorrow when I tinker with the timing some more to force the engine down into the sub 700 RPM range and see what the airflow is then. But it might help to know what other engines run for spark advance at idle. The 302 idled in the 18-23 advance range. Increasing the spark advance didn't really seem to do much. With this engine, if I increase the advance just twisting the distributor, I get the thing idling as high as 1200 with nothing but adding timing. I have to pull timing just to get the RPMs to come down. When I pulled the SPOUT to set base timing to 10, the idle went down. With the SPOUT pulled, I could run the advance lower than 10 and it'd conk the engine out (don't recall exactly how much lower). I didn't notice what the RPMs were with the SPOUT pulled and set at 10. I'll find that out tomorrow.
The mechanical issues left to figure out is the clutch. The clutch isn't disengaging so I'll need to reset the clutch. This is a different clutch so it's not a surprise that it'd need readjusting. It might also need to be bled too. Note unlike normal hydraulic clutches, my setup isn't "auto" adjusting. Long story, if you are curious, I'll send you over to a thread explaining that. I haven't spent any time diagnosing that yet, so I'm not terribly concerned about why it isn't working...yet. But until that's sorted out, I can't drive it...not safely anyway.
As part of the swap, I discovered I have an exhaust leak in the pipe that has my WB. I pulled the WB for the swap and haven't installed it yet. I wanted to get the trans fluid that accidentally went down the exhaust pipe to burn out before I reinstalled it. But I'm not sure how much I'll be able to trust the WB now that I know that tiny exhaust leak is there. I might be able to cover the leak with some high temp silicone caulk. Even if it burns, the char may be enough to plug the leak until I can get it welded up properly and run the WB in the meantime. It can't hurt.
The thing that's just confusing the heck out of me is the RPM fluctuation with what appears to be small AFR changes during Closed Loop. I do recall at some point I played around with manifold filling numbers. And when they were set poorly with the 302, the engine did hunt. So those'll be numbers I'll play with as well once I get the thing driveable.
If there's anything else anybody can think of/suggest/recommend, I'm all ears (err eyes). Overall, I'm just glad I got the thing to crank and run with only about 2 cranks of the key. Now that it has a 331 tune in it, it cranks 1st turn of the key every time.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
Re: 331's in and running, but...
I won't be alot of help on the tuning part, but I have built a ton of engines. Just a few comments and questions. No games with the PCV, leave it fully functional and doing it's job. You may have zero issues with crankcase pressure, oil ring control and such, but just the same, it is a stroker. You don't have a tight cast 302 piston anymore so don't handicap it by limiting the PCVs potential.
Details on the mechanicals? I'm sure you shared it on another thread. And put some time on the engine as that will help. As soon as you can get it on the street, load her up some in 3rd gear and moly rings will seal up almost instantly assuming you have proper clearances.
Details on the mechanicals? I'm sure you shared it on another thread. And put some time on the engine as that will help. As soon as you can get it on the street, load her up some in 3rd gear and moly rings will seal up almost instantly assuming you have proper clearances.
94 GT-T5-347-CBAZA-TM40
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
New Combo- 347-TW190FAC-Victor EFI-FTI Cam-42s-90MM LMAF-Accufab 85MM TB-Nitrous
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
New Combo- 347-TW190FAC-Victor EFI-FTI Cam-42s-90MM LMAF-Accufab 85MM TB-Nitrous
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
The 331 details:
- Self ported GT40p heads
- Scorpion Pedestal Mount 1.6RRs shimmed for optimal roller tip location & custom length pushrods to fit.
- Self ported GT40 Lower (upper untouched)
- Scat 331 cast steel crank & 5.4" connecting rods
- Mahle flat top Forged pistons out of the hole .006" +/-.002"
- .039" FelPro head gaskets. Tight quench build with .030-.035" quench clearance
- SCR 10.1:1
- Crane Powermax 2020 (pn444211) retarded 2 degrees to give me a DCR 8.35:1. Specs verified using a degree wheel.
- Aftermarket springs and lighter-than-stock retainers
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
Re: 331's in and running, but...
You got a win win on that accident :)cgrey8 wrote:
The crank was accidently purchased by my machine shop as a zero balance. So he had to machine out my 50oz flywheel and 34oz balancer to work with that crank. Since it was his screwup, he ate the cost to do all that machine & special balance work.
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
Re: 331's in and running, but...
Yes he did.You got a win win on that accident :)
94 GT-T5-347-CBAZA-TM40
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
New Combo- 347-TW190FAC-Victor EFI-FTI Cam-42s-90MM LMAF-Accufab 85MM TB-Nitrous
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
New Combo- 347-TW190FAC-Victor EFI-FTI Cam-42s-90MM LMAF-Accufab 85MM TB-Nitrous
Re: 331's in and running, but...
You still running EGR? Any chance it's hanging open a bit? How about the vacuum line to the HVAC controls? That one is easy to forget.
I'm sure you probably pinched the booster line while checking PCV and purge.
I'm sure you probably pinched the booster line while checking PCV and purge.
81 Mustang, 91 5.0 shortblock, GT-40 heads & intake, TFS1 cam, 24# bluetops, Explorer TB and FEAD, 73mm C&L Maf, BBK shorties, T-5 with 3.73s. Running GUFB on A9P with QH.
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Yes, EGR is still being maintained. And I guess it is possible it is cracked open. Although if it is, I can't imagine that it'd be increasing the RPM. Usually EGR flow, especially excessive EGR flow will slow the engine down.
HVAC vac line is connected. I remember digging for it and connecting it up.
Now the EGR solenoid might be connected wrong. I might have gotten the hoses on the solenoid backwards. Anybody know if the vacuum goes on the top or bottom of the solenoid? Either way, I did check it by pulling the hose off and seeing if it was responsible for raising and lowering the RPM by putting my finger over the vacuum. It went up and down, but only minimally...not a significant amount. Squeezing in on the PCV line lowered the RPMs from around 1100 to high 900s. CANP unplug reduced the RPMs by probably 50. I'll know for sure whether EGR is working or not 1st time I take it out for a drive. If the EVP doesn't indicate movement, the line's are on backwards.
With the 302, I could control idle RPM via ISC and have the spark advance stay pretty much constant from 550-750. With the 331, it seems my only way to control RPM is with spark, not ISC. I didn't get a chance to play with tuning tonight like I hoped. Dealing with the clutch slave took longer than I thought and the wife had some additional honey-dos that I wasn't counting on that took my time. The good news is with the clutch now working, I can drive it. It's just as well I couldn't get around to it. The lower radiator hose is leaking. I tightened the clamp and it's just spinning...cheap @$$ worm gear hose clamp. I need to replace all those hose clamps with T-clamps. I'll start with that one. So tomorrow, maybe I'll be able to do some tunin'.
HVAC vac line is connected. I remember digging for it and connecting it up.
Now the EGR solenoid might be connected wrong. I might have gotten the hoses on the solenoid backwards. Anybody know if the vacuum goes on the top or bottom of the solenoid? Either way, I did check it by pulling the hose off and seeing if it was responsible for raising and lowering the RPM by putting my finger over the vacuum. It went up and down, but only minimally...not a significant amount. Squeezing in on the PCV line lowered the RPMs from around 1100 to high 900s. CANP unplug reduced the RPMs by probably 50. I'll know for sure whether EGR is working or not 1st time I take it out for a drive. If the EVP doesn't indicate movement, the line's are on backwards.
With the 302, I could control idle RPM via ISC and have the spark advance stay pretty much constant from 550-750. With the 331, it seems my only way to control RPM is with spark, not ISC. I didn't get a chance to play with tuning tonight like I hoped. Dealing with the clutch slave took longer than I thought and the wife had some additional honey-dos that I wasn't counting on that took my time. The good news is with the clutch now working, I can drive it. It's just as well I couldn't get around to it. The lower radiator hose is leaking. I tightened the clamp and it's just spinning...cheap @$$ worm gear hose clamp. I need to replace all those hose clamps with T-clamps. I'll start with that one. So tomorrow, maybe I'll be able to do some tunin'.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
A broken oil fill cap can let in unmetered air, also put a plastic tee into your vacuum system and blow
some cigar smoke into the line and see if any smoke comes out where its not suppose to, watch
under the dash also, as far as engine noise expect alot cold until them pistons expand and then
even hot it only subsides a small amount. Congradulation on getting your new motor fired up its
always a good hurdle to cross.
some cigar smoke into the line and see if any smoke comes out where its not suppose to, watch
under the dash also, as far as engine noise expect alot cold until them pistons expand and then
even hot it only subsides a small amount. Congradulation on getting your new motor fired up its
always a good hurdle to cross.
4400lb 90 MarkVII, KB Blowzilla2.2, 333ci Boss block, A9l BE/EA GUFB, AFX Wideband, PLX EGT&Boost modules, 80mmTB, C&L 85mm Maf, 4" fender CAI, 48lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r, Cammotion cam 220/220 278/278 579/579 114, Meth inj. 50/50 18gph, 175hp NOS Dry, Ported stock lower 265avg@28", 1 3/4'' shorties, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, Hyfire CD IGN, 200 amp alt, 306ci old motor best 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos on MT radials.
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Well, I got things in good enough shape to actually get a drive. There doesn't seem to be any misses. All cylinders seem to be firing so that clears the injectors and plugs.
My modified tune has idle spark drastically reduced and I can actually get an idle near 700, but it's still not as low as I'd like it to be. But if I just have to deal with that I will. But I have this gut feeling there's something that's inherently different that is causing more air to get into the engine than with the 302. It's just a matter of thinking, testing, and eliminating.
Taking it for a drive around the neighborhood, it definitely needs some tuning. While AFRs are good, it runs fine, but transitions from idle to run are rough. I think it's mostly the drastic difference in idle spark vs drive spark that makes takeoff rough.
While on the drive, I noticed that a tick got louder and louder. It got a little disturbing for a while and I was wonder if I'd get the truck back to the house or not. By the time I got back to the house, it calmed down but is definitely still there. It's distinctly coming from the passenger side. So I pulled the oil cap to see if it was a blown exhaust gasket (had that happen before) or if it was internal. It's quite distinctly coming from under the valve cover. It's almost a popping noise when I put my ear up to the oil filler neck. I'm a little concerned about that.
The final thing that I find odd is the LAMBSEs at closed loop are significantly different than each other. For example Bank 1 is at 1.01 while the Bank 2 LAMBSE shows 1.08 at idle. I didn't notice that the other day. I'll look back at the logs and see if this is a new development as of this drive or if it was there and I just missed it.
Amazingly the engine is running pretty good without ping even with 87 octane. Granted I haven't gotten on it at all, but I was expecting the 87 octane to need an octane booster put in the tank just to get it to the gas station to get a fill of 93.
I don't yet trust the truck enough to drive it to work yet. So I'll have to do some more 'round the neighborhood testing and tuning before I trust it for any distance from the house.
My modified tune has idle spark drastically reduced and I can actually get an idle near 700, but it's still not as low as I'd like it to be. But if I just have to deal with that I will. But I have this gut feeling there's something that's inherently different that is causing more air to get into the engine than with the 302. It's just a matter of thinking, testing, and eliminating.
Taking it for a drive around the neighborhood, it definitely needs some tuning. While AFRs are good, it runs fine, but transitions from idle to run are rough. I think it's mostly the drastic difference in idle spark vs drive spark that makes takeoff rough.
While on the drive, I noticed that a tick got louder and louder. It got a little disturbing for a while and I was wonder if I'd get the truck back to the house or not. By the time I got back to the house, it calmed down but is definitely still there. It's distinctly coming from the passenger side. So I pulled the oil cap to see if it was a blown exhaust gasket (had that happen before) or if it was internal. It's quite distinctly coming from under the valve cover. It's almost a popping noise when I put my ear up to the oil filler neck. I'm a little concerned about that.
The final thing that I find odd is the LAMBSEs at closed loop are significantly different than each other. For example Bank 1 is at 1.01 while the Bank 2 LAMBSE shows 1.08 at idle. I didn't notice that the other day. I'll look back at the logs and see if this is a new development as of this drive or if it was there and I just missed it.
Amazingly the engine is running pretty good without ping even with 87 octane. Granted I haven't gotten on it at all, but I was expecting the 87 octane to need an octane booster put in the tank just to get it to the gas station to get a fill of 93.
I don't yet trust the truck enough to drive it to work yet. So I'll have to do some more 'round the neighborhood testing and tuning before I trust it for any distance from the house.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
Member V8-Ranger.com
Re: 331's in and running, but...
u cant break in an engine if u dont beat on it
shoot 24 degrees to her and take her out back and break her in
after i build an engine i lug her from idle to 6500 then engine brake to a slow creep and repeat 3 or 4 times
if it doesnt break in the 1st few pulls its not going to, the first 100 miles on an engine should be the hardest miles that engine will endure
then take her back to the house put some real oil in it and cut the filter open
/done
email me your tune, full engine specs, and a DL ill take a look see
shoot 24 degrees to her and take her out back and break her in
after i build an engine i lug her from idle to 6500 then engine brake to a slow creep and repeat 3 or 4 times
if it doesnt break in the 1st few pulls its not going to, the first 100 miles on an engine should be the hardest miles that engine will endure
then take her back to the house put some real oil in it and cut the filter open
/done
email me your tune, full engine specs, and a DL ill take a look see
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
The noise you heard i wonder if your rocker arm is hitting the valve cover, with the extra lift the
rocker arm could be hitting on the oil fill baffle.
rocker arm could be hitting on the oil fill baffle.
4400lb 90 MarkVII, KB Blowzilla2.2, 333ci Boss block, A9l BE/EA GUFB, AFX Wideband, PLX EGT&Boost modules, 80mmTB, C&L 85mm Maf, 4" fender CAI, 48lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r, Cammotion cam 220/220 278/278 579/579 114, Meth inj. 50/50 18gph, 175hp NOS Dry, Ported stock lower 265avg@28", 1 3/4'' shorties, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, Hyfire CD IGN, 200 amp alt, 306ci old motor best 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos on MT radials.
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
I did have to put thicker valve cover gaskets in to prevent the rockers from hitting the covers. So I guess it is possible one of them is tapping. If it is tapping, it's just barely tapping. But that would suggest that maybe I need to take out .030" or possibly .060" from the shim stack. I did shim them up about 1/4" to get the smallest possible roller swipe possible, so there's plenty of shims there to pull out if I need. The concern is when I was adding more shims, I didn't see that the shims were doing anything to raise or lower the end of the lifter that was in close proximity to the cover. The shims only moved the center and the roller end up or down and pivoted the rocker on the pushrod. But I won't know until I pull a valve cover gasket and take a peek and see if something is contacting. IF it is, what's the danger in letting it continue and just wear/beat itself to silence?markedforlife wrote:The noise you heard i wonder if your rocker arm is hitting the valve cover, with the extra lift the rocker arm could be hitting on the oil fill baffle.
As for the breakin, I always thought you were easiest on an engine in the 1st 100-500 during the breakin. Interesting that the opposite is what you recommend. But I really got nothing to loose, so I'll give it a try I guess. I've never cut open an oil filter, but I've always heard of people doing that. What would I expect to see? And what should I be upset about if I see?
As for the tune, I'll send you what I've got so far. It's based on the old 302 tune which I'm coming to the quick conclusion isn't going to work well. But with less than an hour of tune time on the truck, I just haven't reverted to anything else. Although I'm not opposed to trying whatever. Email me and I'll reply with what I got so far. Engine specs are listed above in this thread. Take a gander at them and tell me what I'm missing that is important to be aware of.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Last year, I finally got around to check for the correct pushrod length. From the stock 6.25? I had to go to 6.4 to get the smallest sweep. After all was said and done, I get a knocking sound on the passenger side. Clearance should not have been an issue, but loosening the cover nuts just a little made it go away. I was like WTF. Even though I removed the oil filler baffle when I first put the efi covers on years ago, it was now hitting the remaining cast part of it. About 10 minutes of the die grinder and all was well again. Might be the same as suggested. Though I could feel the knocking in the filler tube.cgrey8 wrote:I did have to put thicker valve cover gaskets in to prevent the rockers from hitting the covers. So I guess it is possible one of them is tapping. If it is tapping, it's just barely tapping.
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Interesting. I had to increase my pushrod length to 6.550" I believe to get minimal swipe. I hope I don't have to order shorter rods just to get the tap to go away.
The inside of an Explorer valve cover isn't the same as a Mustang. On the PS, the cover raises up where the filler neck is. The baffle is right under the filler neck and is installed such that it is at the same height as the rest of the valve cover. But it certainly wouldn't hurt for me to try loosing the bolts at least the ones on the top of the cover just to see if that's what it is. Wouldn't that be a nice fix?
The inside of an Explorer valve cover isn't the same as a Mustang. On the PS, the cover raises up where the filler neck is. The baffle is right under the filler neck and is installed such that it is at the same height as the rest of the valve cover. But it certainly wouldn't hurt for me to try loosing the bolts at least the ones on the top of the cover just to see if that's what it is. Wouldn't that be a nice fix?
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
A 3rd gasket under there would be no problem but i would look into getting longer bolts or studs. Its
funny that just putting on a stock valve cover becomes a giant project. I had to do the exact
same thing 85GT and that was with a stock cam and FMS rocker arms, then with the baffle removed it
caused a large amount of oil to get sucked into the intake tract/kb blower so i packed the
oil fill tube with a wire mesh similar to the pcv screen and put a 3'' bolt in the filler neck
to keep it from falling into the rocker arm area which caused me to have to make a special
oil fill funnel to get the oil in. HOLY CRAP...
funny that just putting on a stock valve cover becomes a giant project. I had to do the exact
same thing 85GT and that was with a stock cam and FMS rocker arms, then with the baffle removed it
caused a large amount of oil to get sucked into the intake tract/kb blower so i packed the
oil fill tube with a wire mesh similar to the pcv screen and put a 3'' bolt in the filler neck
to keep it from falling into the rocker arm area which caused me to have to make a special
oil fill funnel to get the oil in. HOLY CRAP...
4400lb 90 MarkVII, KB Blowzilla2.2, 333ci Boss block, A9l BE/EA GUFB, AFX Wideband, PLX EGT&Boost modules, 80mmTB, C&L 85mm Maf, 4" fender CAI, 48lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r, Cammotion cam 220/220 278/278 579/579 114, Meth inj. 50/50 18gph, 175hp NOS Dry, Ported stock lower 265avg@28", 1 3/4'' shorties, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, Hyfire CD IGN, 200 amp alt, 306ci old motor best 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos on MT radials.
- cgrey8
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Hmm...you mentioned the stuff used to screen the PCV. At some point, the motor I bought must've had that removed, but I've heard from other people that there is some kind of mesh which was described to look something like steel wool. Because the motor I was building didn't have it, I obviously didn't put it back in. But I've also been told by people that the stuff collects oil and isn't really worth its time causing lots of oil blow-by into the intake than you get if you get rid of it.
Any thoughts on that? I doubt it has anything to do with my problems, but it came up so I ask.
One thing I did think of at lunch to try is what if the intake gaskets are leaking air into the engine from the cam valley? To test that, I'll need to block off the intake pipe that feeds the block with metered air. But that might explain why I can't control idle, the MAF appears to be registering that additional air, AND the LAMBSEs are not equal.
However my fear would be if its leaking air into the cylinders, what's keeping it from leaking water into the oil? Right now, it's an untested theory, but if that's the problem, how do you solve air leaks into the intake ports when the leak is coming from the valve body?
Any thoughts on that? I doubt it has anything to do with my problems, but it came up so I ask.
One thing I did think of at lunch to try is what if the intake gaskets are leaking air into the engine from the cam valley? To test that, I'll need to block off the intake pipe that feeds the block with metered air. But that might explain why I can't control idle, the MAF appears to be registering that additional air, AND the LAMBSEs are not equal.
However my fear would be if its leaking air into the cylinders, what's keeping it from leaking water into the oil? Right now, it's an untested theory, but if that's the problem, how do you solve air leaks into the intake ports when the leak is coming from the valve body?
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Here is the link for that mesh filter which goes under the pcv on a 90 mustang
I'm not sure you have this on your newer motor.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... chTerm=pcv
Is your pcv in the back of the intake? The material i packed into the filler tube which is not
factory is house gutter mesh used to keep out leaves but still lets the water in, i cut it 3''
wide and rolled it tight like rolling up a carpet and stuffed it in there.
Yea the oil control at the pcv seems to be a problem so i ran my pcv hose to a autobody shop type
oil air separator but never tested it much since i busted my pistons within weeks of doing this.
How well did your lower intake toque down?
I'm not sure you have this on your newer motor.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... chTerm=pcv
Is your pcv in the back of the intake? The material i packed into the filler tube which is not
factory is house gutter mesh used to keep out leaves but still lets the water in, i cut it 3''
wide and rolled it tight like rolling up a carpet and stuffed it in there.
Yea the oil control at the pcv seems to be a problem so i ran my pcv hose to a autobody shop type
oil air separator but never tested it much since i busted my pistons within weeks of doing this.
How well did your lower intake toque down?
4400lb 90 MarkVII, KB Blowzilla2.2, 333ci Boss block, A9l BE/EA GUFB, AFX Wideband, PLX EGT&Boost modules, 80mmTB, C&L 85mm Maf, 4" fender CAI, 48lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r, Cammotion cam 220/220 278/278 579/579 114, Meth inj. 50/50 18gph, 175hp NOS Dry, Ported stock lower 265avg@28", 1 3/4'' shorties, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, Hyfire CD IGN, 200 amp alt, 306ci old motor best 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos on MT radials.
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
I'm using a pneumatic tool water separator as an oil separator to go in between the engine and the PCV. Functionally, it should do the trick. What I don't know is how well it'll hold up to sustained engine heat that will be flowing through it.
As for the intake, I don't know what you are wanting to know about how the intake torqued down. I put the silicone down on both sides of the gaskets and across the "gap" in the front and back. The machine shop said I'd be better off using a thick bead of silicone than I would trying to use the rubber pieces that come in gasket kits. I took him at this word, and put a thick bead down. The intake gushed down on top and sealed up nicely. I don't think it is leaking around those seals, but I guess anything's possible? My concern would be some slight angle difference between the head and intake thus leaving a gap on the bottom side. I called myself checking that before gaskets were put on. I put the intake down and looked for an angle difference between the intake and head. It looked good. And with gaskets in place, it still appears good. However I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility. Although I called myself checking those details as best I could while it was on the stand. But I admit being a novice at actual engine assembly. So I guess I could've missed something?
As for the intake, I don't know what you are wanting to know about how the intake torqued down. I put the silicone down on both sides of the gaskets and across the "gap" in the front and back. The machine shop said I'd be better off using a thick bead of silicone than I would trying to use the rubber pieces that come in gasket kits. I took him at this word, and put a thick bead down. The intake gushed down on top and sealed up nicely. I don't think it is leaking around those seals, but I guess anything's possible? My concern would be some slight angle difference between the head and intake thus leaving a gap on the bottom side. I called myself checking that before gaskets were put on. I put the intake down and looked for an angle difference between the intake and head. It looked good. And with gaskets in place, it still appears good. However I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility. Although I called myself checking those details as best I could while it was on the stand. But I admit being a novice at actual engine assembly. So I guess I could've missed something?
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
the mesh screen on the back of the lower intake robs power!!
ask me how and i cant logically say but i know the seat of the pants is noticeable
at least it did for me when i had my 5.0
lots of folk knock gasket pieces, ive yet to have one leak, just silicone it up nice and it'll hold
ask me how and i cant logically say but i know the seat of the pants is noticeable
at least it did for me when i had my 5.0
lots of folk knock gasket pieces, ive yet to have one leak, just silicone it up nice and it'll hold
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Decipha it probably ran better because of excessive crankcase pressure and the pistons having
to fight thru this extra air, thats why engines with a crank driven crankcase vacuum pump makes
more power. In other words a insuffcient pcv system on your cars.
The better question concerning the intake torque was were you able to get all the intake bolts
torqued to 20 lb/ft going round and round and round and a final check to double check?
to fight thru this extra air, thats why engines with a crank driven crankcase vacuum pump makes
more power. In other words a insuffcient pcv system on your cars.
The better question concerning the intake torque was were you able to get all the intake bolts
torqued to 20 lb/ft going round and round and round and a final check to double check?
4400lb 90 MarkVII, KB Blowzilla2.2, 333ci Boss block, A9l BE/EA GUFB, AFX Wideband, PLX EGT&Boost modules, 80mmTB, C&L 85mm Maf, 4" fender CAI, 48lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r, Cammotion cam 220/220 278/278 579/579 114, Meth inj. 50/50 18gph, 175hp NOS Dry, Ported stock lower 265avg@28", 1 3/4'' shorties, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, Hyfire CD IGN, 200 amp alt, 306ci old motor best 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos on MT radials.
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Oh yes, I was. I actually used a torque wrench on each bolt and did it in steps using a pattern I found on the Internet for torqing down a 302 intake.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
How many times did you do it? Like marked is saying, you can go back to it every half hour and find the bolts are loose as the gasket compresses. Needs several cycles depending on gasket type. Try one of the ones you can get to and see if it's still at 20
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
I'll give that a try this weekend when I get back to it just to verify they didn't go soft on me.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
I have torqued intakes for 30 years with great success. SB EFI Ford being an exception. The torque spec is a nice starting point and thats about it IMO. There are just way too many different gasket materials for a one size fits all torque solution. I am particularly unimpressed with the FelPros that do not contain any steel reinforcement. I have seen ALOT of failure PICs of them. I won't run anything that doesn't have a steel core, or better yet graphite/steel mesh construction.decipha wrote:ive never put a tq wrench on an intake before
Regarding the ticking, is your valvetrain geometry good with the new combo? (Proper pushrod length)
94 GT-T5-347-CBAZA-TM40
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Well, I took it out for a drive again. I got on it hard enough that I could feel that it is missing. At first, I was just thinking well maybe it's a spark plug wire jumping to ground. But I figured since I would need to check out the ticking anyway, I wouldn't make any assumptions at this point just yet. I drained the water in the radiator, pushed it in the garage, and began the disassembly. I got the valve cover off and mystery tick solved:
And I'll need to replace this lifter: Fortunately the valve spring retainer and valve stem seem completely unaffected by this. The aluminum absorbed all the damage. Even the end of the pushrod doesn't look scathed...at least not that I can tell. I probably should at least roll it across a flat surface to make sure it didn't bend.
Anyway, I set the rocker back up on the engine, tightened the bolt back down, and rolled the engine over manually. The lifter is still in place since it is lifting and dropping.
I felt of each lifter for the "slop" that used to be there in each one and they are all tight as can be. This one was obviously a little too tight. So yeah, I'll be pulling a good .060" of shims out of the shim pack to make sure this doesn't happen to any of the others. And I'll need to replace this lifter: Fortunately the valve spring retainer and valve stem seem completely unaffected by this. The aluminum absorbed all the damage. Even the end of the pushrod doesn't look scathed...at least not that I can tell. I probably should at least roll it across a flat surface to make sure it didn't bend.
Anyway, I set the rocker back up on the engine, tightened the bolt back down, and rolled the engine over manually. The lifter is still in place since it is lifting and dropping.
...Always Somethin'
89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA
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Re: 331's in and running, but...
Chris
I had a bad feeling this is where we were heading. Did you measure for correct length pushrods, check the rollertip sweep across the valvestems etc? I know you aren't running a combo with aftermarket heads etc, but you have made enough changes to warrant a check. Especially now.
I had a bad feeling this is where we were heading. Did you measure for correct length pushrods, check the rollertip sweep across the valvestems etc? I know you aren't running a combo with aftermarket heads etc, but you have made enough changes to warrant a check. Especially now.
94 GT-T5-347-CBAZA-TM40
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
New Combo- 347-TW190FAC-Victor EFI-FTI Cam-42s-90MM LMAF-Accufab 85MM TB-Nitrous
QH-BE2012-Innovate LC-1
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