I need a LOCAL TwEECER user who knows what there doing

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:41 pm

In the greater seattle area...
Im in Kingston (north kitsap county)
This things kicking my ass, and Im getting know ware.

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:45 pm

Bob,

I work in S. Seattle / Tukwila, and I live in Arlington...

I may be able to help a little,

BUT...

There is a HUGE amount of knowledge on this site.

What kind of problems are you having?

jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:53 pm

Several problems....
WONT idle
wont run with the spout plugged in
running rich
Popping out the exhaust
I dont even know where to start, this thing ran GREAT before the new engine and it hasnt ran right since

Post by **2Shaker** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:01 pm

Bob,

I got your log and will look at it sometime during the day tomorrow.

Does it run any different with the TwEECer switch set to the stock Ford tune?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:14 pm

Looking forward to hearing your input.
As far as running any better with the stock setting....no
It runs like crap with everything Iv tryed, but upping the injector slopes to 40, it did cut the smoke WAY BACK, but if I stick the spout back in, it smokes again....it makes ZERO sence (to me)

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:49 pm

Bob,
Are you getting any diagnostic codes?

The car should be able to run with the spout in or out...

Have you done any work to the motor recently???
When did the problems start???

jason

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:52 pm

Hi Bob
Can you email me the stock C3W and the current tune you have in the car?

efipunk@yahoo.com

Post by **2Shaker** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:50 pm

Bob wrote:Looking forward to hearing your input.
As far as running any better with the stock setting....no
It runs like crap with everything Iv tryed, but upping the injector slopes to 40, it did cut the smoke WAY BACK, but if I stick the spout back in, it smokes again....it makes ZERO sence (to me)

Take them to 50 and try again. You won't hurt a thing doing this diagnostic. I still do not beleive it has anything to do with the tune.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:54 pm

vristang wrote:Bob,
Are you getting any diagnostic codes?

The car should be able to run with the spout in or out...

Have you done any work to the motor recently???
When did the problems start???

jason

I built a stroker (3.25") std bore (327)
AFR 165 heads, ported Cobra intake, E-303 cam, BBK 70 mm TB, 30 lbs injectors, and a MSD ignition

The engines NEVER ran right.
The old engine was a 88 mustang 5.0 with mass air.
ALL wiring is Ford "Motorsports" (pre Ford Racing)
ALL splices were soildered, and done up with glue filled shrink tube.
I built the truck 10 years ago, along with the wiring and have NEVER had ANY problems.

I build a new engine and its never ran right, its not even drivable

The reason behind the 30 lbs injectors is I also have a nitrous setup, and plan to use it.
I had a 75HP shot on a bone stock engine and it loved it.
I plan to go up to the 150 shot

Everythings NEW, and or checked out several times.

Iv got between 175 and 180 PSI on all cylinders

MUCH more info in my other posts
Clint had me remove the 75mm airmeter and reinstall the stock unit for a test, and its still installed

I bumped the injector highs and lows to 40 to see if it dryed out the WET plugs and there dryer, but nothing else has really done ANYTHING

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:06 am

Have you re-checked the distributor installation?
I've installed mine 180* out, and had serious issues.
Since the motor is NEW, that would be high on the list of probably issues.

Other than that, run the codes and see what you get.
Codes may not help at all, but it could tell you exactly what is wrong.
It's definately worth the time to run through the codes.

jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:13 am

I even went as far as replacing the msd distributor with the oem, thinking the msd was the problem, no changes

Last I looked I was getting no codes, but I may not have run it long enough with any one tune to set off codes....maybe

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:25 am

There are KOEO codes (key on - engine off)
and KOER codes (key on - engine running)

You should still be able to get KOEO codes. Even if you have not run the car at all...

This will help to verify that all sensors are hooked up, and functioning properly...

sailorbob · Post by **sailorbob** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:52 am

Pretty much as EFIpunk has asked, can you post your tune up so that it can be reviewed?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:38 pm

sailorbob wrote:Pretty much as EFIpunk has asked, can you post your tune up so that it can be reviewed?

How do I go about posting the tune? or posting a datalog?...NEVERMIND...That was easy.....

Tune
http://eectuning.org/index2.php?url=nod ... hp?rid=118

Datalog
http://eectuning.org/index2.php?url=nod ... hp?rid=116

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:22 am

Bob wrote:Looking forward to hearing your input.
As far as running any better with the stock setting....no

Maybe I didn't understand this right???

You have tried running the motor without the tweecer? Strictly off the stock ecu?

AND there was no change in how the motor ran?

If this is correct, then it sounds like a hardware problem.

Did the car run without the tweecer installed before the new motor went in???

jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:52 am

I ran the truck without the Tweecer, with the old engine (89 5.0HO) for 10 years with ZERO problems

I built a new engine and installed it and was all ready to fire it off and drive it home (installed at work) and it didnt run right from the 1st turn of the key

I tested everything I could think of and replaced most of that anyway, and nothing helped.

I checked every ground in the harness.

I had the owner of a local shop that specializes in late model Fords, come to our shop at work, and we rechecked everything a few more times, and using a checklist off of fordfuelinjection.com, came to the conclusion it was the eec, or the airmeter (also a new unit)

I ordered a reman EEC, and installed it, with no changes.

I was reading on the Tweecer site, about having all the "Go Fast" parts and there not "Playing nice together" and came to the conclusion that the tweecer may be a good idea, being I have a nitrous kit, that I do plan on using, and maybe it would get this thing running right...

All the wiring harnesses are from Ford Racing, and all splices and soildered and insulated with glue filled type shrink tube.

I hope this makes more sence and answers your questions
Let me know if you have more

I REALLY want and NEED to get this thing running, Iv drove it less than 2 or 3 miles since the new engine went in LAST SUMMER!

Thanks again everyone!
Bob

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:06 am

Here is what I am seeing Bob,
The E-cam has a reputation for screwing with the idle, but nothing like what you are describing. The rest of your parts should work fairly well together without a tune.

The car ran fine before the new motor.
New motor was installed, and the car ran crappy.
This suggests that one of the things changed when the new motor was installed, is what is causing the problem.

Bob wrote:Several problems....
WONT idle
wont run with the spout plugged in
running rich
Popping out the exhaust
I dont even know where to start, this thing ran GREAT before the new engine and it hasnt ran right since

This sounds like the dist is 180 off...
I've installed the dist wrong on my junk a couple of times, and had similar results.

Have you dead timed the dist again?

If the dist checks out then maybe the pushrods are not the proper length???
That can cause power loss, erratic idle, popping out exhaust, etc...
(however, your compression numbers sound ok, so that doesn't seem likely)

It doesn't sound like a tuning issue. Especially if changing the tune (as you have done), has no affect on the motors behavior.

I guess I would double check the dist install, and see from there...
jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:39 am

Iv pulled the distributor a few times and checked, but whats one more time at this point! LOL

Iv had the distributor out and with the #1 spark plug out, bumped the engine over (nice and slow) with my finger over the sparkplug hole, and when I felt pressure, at the top of the stroke, I rotated the crank, to zero degrees on the timing mark, and dropped the distributor back in, noting the direction the rotor was pointing. and it was to the #1 on the cap. Checked the firing order a MILLION times.....ok maybe 25 times....

As far as the pushrods, I cut 2 of the old ones in 1/2, in a way that I had 2 short and 2 long parts, after getting a ballpark idea of what I needed, I tig welded the 2 longer parts together, giving me a pushrod .100 longer than stock, after checking, it was to long. I recut it and rewelded it and it ended up being 6.300 And ordered new ones to that size. Actually the guy who built the bottom end stopped in as I was setting up the rocker arms / pushrods, and I had him give the adjustment a looking at and he said they looked good.
Also Im getting compression between 175 and 185.

Im getting SOME changes when I redo a tune, but nothing like I would expect or as much as others have said I should be getting

I think next Im going to unplug the eec and everything I can get to that plugs into it, and do a continuity test on every wire and also to ground and see if I have a short.
Getting to some of the plugs isnt possible without pulling the upper intake, and pulling that isnt easy eather. Have to keep in mind this ISNT in a Mustang, its in a BroncoII, and TIGHT to the firewall.
Thats the reason I went with a Cobra intake, because the driver side rear bolt for the upper, comes all the way to the top where I can get at it. When I installed the 5.0 10 years ago, it was put in as a unit, and that bolt wasnt something I could get at, see or even touch!

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:52 am

Sounds like you have been doing it right, but give this a glance just to make sure...
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,7114.0.html

jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:05 am

well I know my tfi isnt pointing as in the center pic on that page...and maybe not within the 15 degrees they show eather....

http://sbftech.com/index.php?PHPSESSID= ... 3118;image

Beast_88_GT · Post by **Beast_88_GT** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:47 pm

I'm in Seattle also... but I'm just getting started with the tweecer and probably wouldn't be much help in the tuning dept. but I agree, it sounds like a distributer issue to me. Keep in mind, it doesn't have to be 180* off. Being off by 1 tooth will cause the issues you are having. Especially if it will only fire once the computer is giving it more timing (with the spout in). It's easy to be off by 1 tooth depending on how you marked the distributer since it rotates as you drop it in. Easy check is to get the motor to fire with the distributer bolt loosened and rotate the distributer clockwise or counterclockwise as far as you can and see if it improves.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:06 pm

Im working on it as we speak...or as I type....

WHat Im thinking, and I CANT BELIEVE hasnt been brought up, or if it has I MISSED IT!
But the ignition timing I KNOW 100% was and is correct, but you can set the ignition timing, but still be off with the distributor, so the pip is off, causing the injector timing to be off.....
Is this correct?

Its like with the old school distributor, with points....if your off say 90 degrees, you can move the wires all up 2 holes and be back to spec and running.

I may be wrong, but Im thinking with the TFI ignition, if your off the same 90 degrees, as above, and move the wires all up 2 holes, the ignition will be back and the timing light will read it correctly BUT...
The pip will still be off 90 degrees, causing the injectors to still fire 90 degrees off....Is this correct?

I MAY be off 1 friggin tooth! so the ignition timing has been reading to spec this whole time!

As I said Im working on it now, but with all the testing and running back out to make a check, and back in, and back and forth, I left the damn key on so I got home to check this all out and came home to a dead battery!

Am I on to something, or wishful thinking?

Post by **2Shaker** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:21 pm

Regarding the distributor being off one tooth, if he has set it with the timing light it there really is no such thing as off one tooth. I don't see how it can be 180 off either as some people have said. If its really 180 off and you set the timing with the light (and the dampner hasn't moved and the pointer is right) I don't see how it would ever run. I've had distributors 180 out and all it does is pop and backfire because you're firing as the motor is entering the intake stroke. Now mind you I'm not talking about the physical orientation of the distributor body, it might 1 tooth or 180 degrees from where you want it, but as long as the rotor is pointing at number 1 wire when number 1 piston is at the top of the compression stroke you're good.

Now if the spark timing is right there is still a potential problem with the EEC and the injector timing. The distributor cap is keyed and can only go on one way. Further, all of the Ford caps I've seen are marked with a "1" and if the plug wires are not installed with #1 wire in the cap at the #1 position, then the reluctor in the distributor that tells EEC the crank position will be off. This will cause the injector timing to be screwed up.

And if he has not set his timing with the timing light then ignore everything I said above.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:36 pm

So much for that thought....

Post by **cgrey8** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 pm

I don't think that the reluctor could be 90 out since the reluctor is fixed WITH the rotor, so if the rotor is at the #1 lug, the reluctor is too. As long as the rotor is at the #1 lug when the piston is rising for the compression stroke, I don't think there'd be a problem.

However even if it was, being out 90deg on the injector timing would not cause what you are seeing. Injector timing makes minor differences in the way the engine runs especially at low loads like idle. You could be firing the injector 10 crank degrees after the intake valve closed, and the engine should still run...possibly a tad rough, but not anything like you are describing.

Post by **2Shaker** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:33 pm

cgrey8 wrote:I don't think that the reluctor could be 90 out since the reluctor is fixed WITH the rotor, so if the rotor is at the #1 lug, the reluctor is too. As long as the rotor is at the #1 lug when the piston is rising for the compression stroke, I don't think there'd be a problem.

In my example I also stated that the wires had to be in the cap wrong. In that event the rotor would have to be turned to wherever the number one wire is inserted, which in my example here is in a position other than #1 on the cap. So the spark timing would be right, but the reluctor would be out of position relative to the cam. I am having trouble describing this... :-)

cgrey8 wrote:However even if it was, being out 90deg on the injector timing would not cause what you are seeing. Injector timing makes minor differences in the way the engine runs especially at low loads like idle. You could be firing the injector 10 crank degrees after the intake valve closed, and the engine should still run...possibly a tad rough, but not anything like you are describing.

Absolutely, I agree.

cougarnut281 · Post by **cougarnut281** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:43 pm

Have you hooked up a vacuum gauge to the manifold? If so how much vaccum was it pulling?

steelborn1 · Post by **steelborn1** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:15 pm

This may or may not help but no one has mentioned that there are 2 different firing orders for the 302. Are you using the 5.0 HO firing order? Just a thought. It could be easily overlooked.

Post by **2Shaker** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:27 pm

I think we asked him this but I've thought about asking it again myself. I've never experimented to see what happens with the old firing order.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:37 pm

firing order is 5.0 ho...timing at 10 degrees

As Iv said before, Iv had this for years and the problem started with the new engine. Before the new engine Iv NEVER had a problem

Everyone keeps saying timing or check vacuum, but both are really hard to get right without it idling, timinga as close to 10 as I can get and the vacuum is about 15

I need a LOCAL TwEECER user who knows what there doing

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