Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Anything about Ford EEC tuning. TwEECer and Moates questions dominate, but there's some SCT and OBD-II knowledge too.

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Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:57 pm

I am creating this sticky for all members to discuss and update PID Descriptions within the strategies so they can be updated accordingly and everyones input is welcome and encouraged. CGREY8 SailorBob, PopsRacing and myself are going to collaborate all the information discussed and once agreed upon and accuracy checked the respective strategy owners or maintainers will be able to update and better describe the functionality of the pids. I will be concentrating on GUFB since that is what I am most comfortable and versatile with but all strategies are welcome to be discussed. Here is an example of what I am looking to do:

In the GUFB strategy the pid descriptor for the scaler MEFTRA is:

MEFTRA - Multiplier of the transient fuel contribution to the injection pulsewidth.
Multiplier values less than 1 reduce fuel, values greater than 1 increase fuel.


This is correct and most likely does not require any additional input or update. Now lets look at the scaler MEFTRD:

MEFTRD - Multiplier for decelerations.

See the difference? Its incomplete. I feel the descriptor should be the same as MEFTRA. Its descriptors like this that I would like to make an effort to clean up or add to or whatever needs to be done to update them. Once we all decide on the proper update the strategy owners/maintainers will update them while they are updating the files themselves. I think with better , more detailed and precise descriptors; people will have a better understanding for whats going on and what they are modifying and its effects on the tune.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:04 pm

Even though the title doesn't say GUFx, I think what he's wanting to do is point out PIDs specifically in the GUFx defs that could be explained better in the comments. While I'm happy to add those comments, I don't like adding comments without getting the opinions of the expert bin hackers 1st. I've taken comments from others verbatim & put them in published def files in the past and gotten burned doing that because they didn't fully know what they were talking about and wrongfully explained the PID...and that's not what I want for the GUFx defs. So what I'm wanting is for people to point out PIDs that could have better comments, and offer what they believe the comment should say so others can confirm, clarify, or point out faults BEFORE the comments become part of a version.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by PoweredbyEECV » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:06 pm

CRAJ0 already has much of this done but should have some of the comments rewritten to be more generic, I got a little long winded on some of them. Much of the data came out of the strat, because at the time it didn't exist anywhere else and because it was the best way to ensure accuracy. Will these DEF files, when updated be made available to the tuning community free of charge like was my intention for the CRAJ0 DEF file?
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by stu11926 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:48 am

This would be most helpful. I'm still working on learning tuning (a year and a half later), but I've learned the most from reading the two books by Greg Banish, this forum, and the PID descriptions. However, some of those descriptions saying, "Huh?" It would be REALLY nice if other PIDs or tables in the description were linkable. For example, the description for FN1307 reads:
FN1307 - This table's columns scale as a ratio of ACT & ECT, based on the scalar FRCBFT.
The formula is as follows:
FRCBFT*ACT+(1-FRCBFT)*ECT

While FRCBFT is at it's stock value of 0.000, assume column values are ECT.

This table is active when:
ECT < ECTSTABL or
WRMEGO = FALSE

Otherwise, FN1360 is used.
It would be incredibly helpful if "FRCBT" was a clickable link in BE that would take you directly to that scalar, function, or table. Now that this is all typed out, it would likely be better in the BE feature suggestions forum. :(
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by cgrey8 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:17 am

Agreed. That's more a BE feature request than something that can be made better in the def file alone.

Also keep in mind the GUFx comments are written with the knowledge that there IS a GUFB document available to reference. Other strategies must be written in such a way that people without access to a document can figure out what's going on. Thus in your example, FRCBFT isn't exactly descriptive or even intuitive as to what that is. But you can search the GUFB doc and figure that out. I would not expect other strats that don't have strategy documents to reference to do this in the comments.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:57 am

cgrey8 wrote:Even though the title doesn't say GUFx, I think what he's wanting to do is point out PIDs specifically in the GUFx defs that could be explained better in the comments. While I'm happy to add those comments, I don't like adding comments without getting the opinions of the expert bin hackers 1st. I've taken comments from others verbatim & put them in published def files in the past and gotten burned doing that because they didn't fully know what they were talking about and wrongfully explained the PID...and that's not what I want for the GUFx defs. So what I'm wanting is for people to point out PIDs that could have better comments, and offer what they believe the comment should say so others can confirm, clarify, or point out faults BEFORE the comments become part of a version.
This is exactly what I am looking to accomplish. I didnt want to limit it to just GUFX but that is what I will be concentrating on. I wanted to leave it open for all strats and let the respective strategy owners/writers/maintainers update them as they see fit once all the proper information is collected and accurate. I dont want this to be a burden or a pain in the rump for anyone but I do think a lil update or addition or maintanence is required and will be helpful to all.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:40 pm

This is a MASSIVE task...

If I see anything in the sailorbob CBAZA strategy that I think could use attention, I'll post it up... that's all I'm using though...
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:09 pm

vristang wrote:This is a MASSIVE task...

If I see anything in the sailorbob CBAZA strategy that I think could use attention, I'll post it up... that's all I'm using though...
Its only gonna be as massive as we make it. :mrgreen: I have been going throught the gufb.doc and most everything is in check but I always come across a pid that just seems like it could use more explanation than what it currently offers. I also come across pids like daspto and its description currently in the gufb/a9l is:

DASPTO - An offset added to the final dashpot (pre position airflow) value in order to ensure some airflow during tip in or tip out. Typically set around 0.10 lb/min.

In the GUFB.doc the description is:

DASPTO = An offset term applied to the DASPOT calculation. Insures at least some dashpot airflow on rapid tip-in/tip-outs. ..Typical value - 0.10 lbs/min.

I dont have a problem with either description but I was thinking of why the default setting is 0.0500 lb/min when the recommended setting is double the current default value? These are things that make me think why the defaults are set the way they are and why not set to the recommended or typical value.

Here is another example:

current pid description:
BZZRPM - Additional rpm added to base target idle rpm at start up to clear engine.

GUFB.doc:
BZZRPM = RPM adder intended to provide a short increase in RPM for engine cleanout on start-up. The buzz-up function is not affected by the part
throttle kickdown until BZZTM expires. ..Typical value - 300 RPM.


I think it should be updated to the gufb.doc description and I am also curious why the current default value is 64 rpm when the recommended or typical value is 300 rpm.

One more:

current pid description:
DNPOWS - Adds rpm to 'Desired Idle RPM' when power steering is engaged, used to compensate for the additional load this imposes.

GUFB.doc:
DNPOWS = If a power steering pressure switch is used, this parameter
increments the desired RPM when an increased load is sensed. ..Typical
value - 75 RPM.


My personal preference would be to update the descriptor to reflect that of the gufb.doc and leave it alone since it is more detailed and honestly how many of us would even use this scaler? However for a new comer to read this the current descriptor might be a little misleading making them think if their rpm is dipping during parkin lot manuevers that adding to this scaler will help. The gufb.doc explains it better that if a "power steering pressure sensor is being used....." So a newbie for a lack of better words wouldnt try to use this and wonder why its not working.

I am just thinking out loud and I am not trying to push my oppinions on anyone but I would like to get feedback from all on what they think.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:28 am

decipha wrote:
vristang wrote:If I see anything in the sailorbob CBAZA strategy that I think could use attention, I'll post it up... that's all I'm using though...

very unlikely, I've passed the fine tooth through the def, if you find something amiss be sure to cc me as well as that would mean im slacking
LOL
Most likely it will be because I'm a newb and don't know what I'm doing...
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:16 am

I am thinking the scaler NUMEGO should be as follows:

NUMEGO - A calibration switch exists which is used to tell the computer how many EGO sensors are present.

If NUMEGO = 1, the system is treated as a mono EGO
sensor system and all fuel pulsewidths are calculated from the single EGO
sensor (treated as EGO-1).

If NUMEGO = 2: Fuel pulsewidths for the EGO-2
injectors are calculated from EGO-2 sensor information; Fuel pulsewidths for
the EGO-1 injectors are calculated from EGO-1 sensor information. FN1327
links the injector outputs to the appropriate EGO sensor.

I am thinking this can be added to Z_OLSW:

OPEN LOOP MODE
During open loop operation, the computer calculates the injector fuel
pulsewidths required to provide a pre-determined A/F ratio or lambda value.
The desired lambda values (LAMBSE1, LAMBSE2) can vary with engine operating
conditions and are calibration-dependent. During open loop, LAMBSE1 equals
LAMBSE2.

CLOSED LOOP MODE
During closed loop operation, the computer ramps the desired lambda values
(LAMBSE1, LAMBSE2) in a limit cycle manner about stoichiometry. Using the
EGO (Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor, the computer increases or decreases lambda
at a calculated rate of change. The rate at which lambda changes is
calibration dependent. For Stereo EGO operation, LAMBSE1 and LAMBSE2 vary
independently using EGO-1 and EGO-2 sensors. For Mono EGO operation, LAMBSE1
equals LAMBSE2.



I think FN1315 should read as follows:

FN1315 = An 10x8 table which gives injector delay as
a function of engine speed and load.
X-input = FN070 - Normalized Engine Speed (N).
Y-input = FN085 - Normalized Load.

Injector timing is the delay before each injector output is fired. The delay
is taken from TDC of the reference PIP signal for each injector output. The
units for injector timing are absolute engine crank degrees. The range is
0 degrees TDC to 720 degrees ATDC with 4 degree resolution.
Either edge (on or off) of the injector pulse can be timed. The calibration
switch INJREF defines the reference edge for injector timing.
INJREF = 0, Use start of fuel pulse.
INJREF = 1, Use end of fuel pulse.
Regardless of which edge is used, the injector delay is used only to start a
fuel pulse. Once started, pulsewidth accuracy has top priority.
When the system is not in sync (SYNFLG = 0), the injector timing is
coincident with the relevant PIP signal. The injector outputs are fired in
sequence after receiving the rising edge of the reference PIP signals.
Actual timing will be the result of the random link between signature PIP
(cylinder #1) and #1 injector output.

I also think the min should read 0tdc and the max for fn1315 should be 720atdc degrees and not 716 degrees.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by TwistedTwins » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:15 pm

Here is a list of a couple of things I have added to my definition file that were not available in the Free BE / Tuner Pro file if anyone is interested in implementing them:

All are for CBAZA, if you are interested in others let me know, I have been working on adding more as well.

Misc> ARCWOTCOR - Aircharge Correction Factor WOT 0xBCE0 (0xDCE0 in TP) - 16bit, LSB, X/32786

Misc> ARCANTCOR - Aircharge Correction Factor 0xBCD2 (0xDCD2 in TP) - 16bit, LSB, X/32786

Spark> KACRAT - Spark Tip In TP 0xCA14 (0xEA14 in TP) - 8bit, X/256

Idle> IDCOFS – ISC Dutycycle Offset 0xBD86 (0xDD86 in TP) - 16bit, LSB, X/327.675

Idle> IDCMUL - ISC Dutycycle Multiplier - 0xBD84 (0xDD84 in TP) - 16bit, LSB, X/32786

Fuel> Z_AFR - Stoichiometric AF Ratio - 0x6B83 (0x8B83 in TP) - 16bit, LSB, x/4096
(59965 = 14.64 Unleaded Gas)(See Spreadsheet for details)

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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by 95Bird » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:22 pm

I'm using Derek's CCAQE and would benefit from some additional comments. While many are good, some are a bit thin or ambiguous - at least to me. I'm still learning so the comments are really valuable. This sounds like a worthwhile effort all around. Derek is good about sending me updated files when he makes changes.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:01 am

DASMIN - DASMIN.....?????
DEBYCP - DEBYCP......?????
ISCLPD - ISCLPD - If the base target idle speed values have been altered then adjust this to suit.
Is there a certain way to figure out the math on how to change tis setting?

Do we just add the difference of which way the idle was changed. Are there any other parameters that are effected? Just thinking out loud.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:16 pm

Here is one that may rquire an update in gufx:

Current pid description:

CIDRSW - Set to fix the injector timing to the 'Injector Timing Value at Idle' value when the vehicle is in drive.

GUFB.doc:

CIDRSW = Calibration switch to enable Special Fuel Timing at
Idle, unitless. If set to 1, Enable; 0, Disable.

What I am confused about is what does idle timing have to do with the vehicle being in drive? I thought the ecm should be referencing fn1315 for injector timing in drive. I am thinking this is a typo and the word drive needs to be replaced with the word idle in the descriptor.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:25 pm

Messing with idle today and saw this...

NUBASE - The base target idle speed in neutral before adders. If altered, adjust the 'Idle Flag Max RPM' (aka IDLRPM) parameter too. The 'ISC Gain vs RPM Error' (aka FN824) parameter might also need adjusting too (to be confirmed).

I can't find FN824 anywhere. I have all levels shown, and it isn't coming up???
Did I miss something, or what?
90 GT - In storage, waiting for an engine... probably 351w based and EEC-V for CoP.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:33 pm

vristang wrote:Messing with idle today and saw this...

NUBASE - The base target idle speed in neutral before adders. If altered, adjust the 'Idle Flag Max RPM' (aka IDLRPM) parameter too. The 'ISC Gain vs RPM Error' (aka FN824) parameter might also need adjusting too (to be confirmed).

I can't find FN824 anywhere. I have all levels shown, and it isn't coming up???
Did I miss something, or what?
Which strategy is this in. It shows up in gufb/a9l for me.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:50 pm

Maybe I am missing something...

I can't find z_iscsw for disabling isc either...

ITHBMA - This parameter is the air mass flow through the throttle body when the butterfly is closed against the idle stop screw and the ISC dutycycle is 0%. This value is used by the eec to determine the ISC dutycycle required to meet the calculated desired idle air flow. Alter using this method;

With the engine fully warmed up and the idle steady, set the 'Disable ISC' (aka Z_ISCSW) parameter value to "Yes" and hopefully the car will still be idling. Adjust the throttle body stop screw so that the car will just barely idle and set the TPS to ~0.95 volts. Datalog the MAF's flow over a period of 30 seconds and calculate the average. Convert this kg/hr value into lb/min and use this value for this parameter.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:54 pm

sorry, these are both in the CBAZA.cry from derek... probably should have put this elsewhere...
90 GT - In storage, waiting for an engine... probably 351w based and EEC-V for CoP.
87 LX N/A 2.3 - CZAJL & EDIS
http://tunexchange.mustang-tech.org/ - RIP
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:50 am

vristang wrote:sorry, these are both in the CBAZA.cry from derek... probably should have put this elsewhere...
This is the right place for it. This thread is available for all strategies and .bins.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:00 am

Tried messing with FN1321 - Transient Fuel today...
Went looking for the ACT/ECT Fraction setting and couldn't find it as it was described in the sailorbob CBAZA.cry definition.

The description for FN1321 was as follows...
FN1321 -

The column input value is the ratio of ACT to ECT where the ACT contribution is defined by the 'ACT Fraction for Transient Fuel' (aka ALPHA) parameter.
I went looking for 'ALPHA' and came up empty... but found this, which I think is the correct scalar?
FRCBFT - ACT Fraction for Fuel Base Table
90 GT - In storage, waiting for an engine... probably 351w based and EEC-V for CoP.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by Chucko » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:52 am

I'll probably have some input on this. See the thread I just started in the EEC Geeks forum.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:00 pm

This is just a typo that can be fixed anytime:

NUMPR Fuel - OL Fuel Startup Netural Multiplier

Maybe we can add "multiplier less than 1.00 reduce fuel and greater than 1 increase fuel" if thats the way it works.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Chucko wrote:I'll probably have some input on this. See the thread I just started in the EEC Geeks forum.
It would be great if you let me merge your thread to this one. Let me know and I can sticky this to the eec geeks forum if you like.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by Chucko » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:10 am

EDS50 wrote:
Chucko wrote:I'll probably have some input on this. See the thread I just started in the EEC Geeks forum.
It would be great if you let me merge your thread to this one. Let me know and I can sticky this to the eec geeks forum if you like.
Sorry I missed this, I haven't been checking in much this week. Be my guest!
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EDS50
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Question on GUFX/A9L FN1861

Post by EDS50 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:39 pm

I noticed the pid descriptor is: Idle - ISC Startup Airflow Multiplier
I recently realized that this not only effects idle start up airflow but continues to play a role in idle air throughout the operating range. Is this table supposed to work this way or does the descriptor need to be updated?
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

sailorbob
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Re: Question on GUFX/A9L FN1861

Post by sailorbob » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:46 pm

It is mislabeled; it is multiplier of the predicted idle airflow to adjust for ECT and time in run mode.

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Re: Question on GUFX/A9L FN1861

Post by EDS50 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:53 pm

sailorbob wrote:It is mislabeled; it is multiplier of the predicted idle airflow to adjust for ECT and time in run mode.
Thank you for the clarification. I will merge this with my other thread regarding the pid descriptors.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by vristang » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:17 am

Would it be possible to include error code numbers in the pid descriptions?

VMAMIM- triggers code 115

I may have the pid or code number wrong... Going from memory right now

This way we could search BE for the code number to find the relevant parameters quickly.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by Vortech347 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Huge task, But extremely welcome.

Can't tell you how many times I see a table and go "wtf does this do?

Thanks for your time in this Ed.
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Re: Open Discussion to Update Strategy PID Descriptions

Post by EDS50 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:50 pm

Vortech347 wrote:Huge task, But extremely welcome.

Can't tell you how many times I see a table and go "wtf does this do?

Thanks for your time in this Ed.
This is exactly why I am trying to do thisWith all of the knowledge we have collectively as a commmunity, there should be no reason for not knowing what something is or does.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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