Explorer ECM - Page 2

bkpoisn · Post by **bkpoisn** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:58 pm

Hello,

I am the person who runs DAI (http://www.dainst.com), and I've seen some information in this thread which is incorrect. First, unless there is a secret mode, the EEC-IV doesn't have the ability to drive an EDIS module. The TFI ignition is a realtime ignition which uses the timer scheduler of the EEC-IV architecture. The EDIS system is an asyncronous system which doesn't require realtime operation.

The SAW (Spark Angle Word) is a pulsewidth encoded advance signal sent from the EEC. This represents an advance range of 10ATDC to 57.5BTDC. If you install an EDIS module into an EEC-IV car, without hacking the ECU to emit a SAW, the spark advance will default to 10BTDC.

The EDIS requires a SAW within 5 spark cycles or it goes into LOS mode.

The hit-n-miss method Sabio was referring to only involves the DIS ignition and not the EDIS. The EDIS is a waste spark system and fires the complimentary coil every revolution. The DIS system requires a cam position sensor to fire the proper coil because it still keeps track of cylinder #1 for fueling. The EDIS module doesn't differentiate between #1 and #5 on a 5.0HO. Because of this you'd have to design a PIP emulator which takes the Explorer cam sensor input and modulates the PIP signal emitted by the EDIS module.

Are any of you interested in a TFI to EDIS adapter which would allow you to run EDIS on an unmodified TFI car? You would leave the distributor and TFI module installed, but remove the cap and install an EDIS module for spark. I have been considering this idea since I'm currently going through caps about every 4k miles before they carbon up. I'm just curious what the demand would be for this.

You can email me privately at pedward at dainst dot com.

--Perry

Sabio · Post by **Sabio** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:00 am

Here is my discussion with Perry (his comments in italic):
the EEC-IV doesn't have the ability to drive an EDIS module
1991 Crown Vic,Grand Marquis and Town Car using EDIS and have EEC-IV (look at page 339 "Ford Fuel Injection....by O.Probst)!

Correct, those ECUs support EDIS, I meant A9S/A9L family of processors

The EDIS system is an asyncronous system which doesn't require realtime operation.
Doesn´t require,but can????The EDIS Processor is at least as fast as the EEC Processor!

TFI requires that the EEC-IV perform realtime operations for spark timing. The EDIS system is distributed and thus doesn't require realtime response from the EEC.

The EDIS requires a SAW within 5 spark cycles or it goes into LOS mode.
EDIS get the signal to fire Cyl.1/5 60 degrees BTDC (see page 75 Fig.2-10)

If you do not send a SAW within 5 spark events, the EDIS reverts to LOS mode. The diagram on 75 only refers to the clocking of the VR sensor with relation to TDC. The EEC book is plain *wrong*. The EDIS is a waste spark system and thus one single coil is attached to cylinder 1 and 5, thus when that coil is fired the correct cylinder will fire. Charles got that mixed up with the LOS mode of the DIS ignition. The EDIS has no need for hit-n-miss because it's a pure waste spark system. His diagram in 2-10 is incorrect as well. The V8 VR sensor is positioned so that the missing tooth should fall at 50 degrees BTDC. The pictured example is borked.
The hit-n-miss method Sabio was referring to only involves the DIS ignition and not the EDIS
NO! Look at page 74-75 it says "EDIS"!

Charles is wrong in the section. His book isn't even close to exhaustive WRT EDIS. I have spent the last year compiling all the information I could on EDIS from Ford patents, knowledgable 3rd parties, and several people who have EDIS test benches and on-car experience. EDIS is the simplest ignition Ford created, yet it's shrouded in the biggest ignorance of all. I am the author of the EDIS information at dainst.com, I also plan on creating an authoritative page on TFI as well.
The EDIS ignition is seeing heavy interest and use by DIY EFI people, specifically the MegaSquirt crowd. There are already TWO working EDIS ignitions, the MegaSquirtnEDIS and the MegaJoltLiteJr (MJLJ).

I've written and contributed source code for doing EDIS control, and I can say without a doubt that the MJLJ is quite honestly the best 3rd party EDIS controller.
without hacking the ECU to emit a SAW, the spark advance will default to 10BTDC.
SAW and SPOUT is PIN 36 on all EEC-IV modules,it must be generated for TFI also!

The EDIS does not emit the signature PIP signal, the 70/30 on cylinder #1, because it doesn't know the difference between #1 and #5. Ford solved the sequential problem by using a cam phase sensor in the distributor hole. You would either have to make a circuit which can emit the signature PIP based on the cam phase signal and PIP from the EDIS, or simply forego the removal of the distributor. If you leave the distributor in place, it'll still generate the signature PIP for the EEC-IV SEFI. The interface work then becomes simply timing the distributor so that the EDIS and distributor emit their PIP signals simultaneously. The EEC-IV then doesn't need the PIP signal from the EDIS because it's exactly in time with the TFI PIP. Because they are in time, the EEC-IV can emit the SAW at the correct interval. The SAW can be communicated to the EDIS at any time except 10 degrees ATDC, when the EDIS reads the advance word from the internal accumulator. The Ford patent says that the SAW should be communicated 10us after 10 degrees ATDC.

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:53 pm

What an interesting thread! Sorry guys, I've really been out of the loop, but I'd like to participate if I can add anything. I've been running EDIS since last summer on my 215 MGB-V8. I started with the entire '93 CV system, but to obtain processor support switched to the SN95 processor ('95 Mustang GT...that's T4M0 right?). The system is very complete and includes all the CV components, EDIS, all sensors, fan control, and even cruise, though I eliminated EGR and turned it off and made a few other changes that aren't particularly relevant here. I created an oil pump drive that uses the base of the stock 215 distributor and has a CID sensor mounted on it to mimic the 4.6L, and everything is wired in accordance with the CV schematic except for firing order, where I simply moved wires around as needed. The car ran pretty well with the all CV system but was way rich at idle and had a surging problem at 2100 rpm.

To swap in the T4M0 for the L2W no rewiring was required. It was plug-n-play. There may be one or two peripheral pins that are different but nothing relevant for a manual transmission car and the schematics show the two O2 sensors swapped side for side, which I did but then swapped them back because it seemed to run better that way and datalogging showed better mixture control. Using the tuning parameters of the L2W with the T4M0 and leaning out the curve for the MAF I got it to run extremely well, although the surge was still there. This engine is supercharged (roots type), showing 15+ lbs in the manifold maxed out, though the ports are quite restrictive. At this point I do not know exactly what the timing is doing and Perry has raised some significant questions. First however let me raise one of my own: Since there was no discernable difference in what the ignition was doing after changing to the T4M0 is it not possible that it was behaving exactly the same as the L2W was in regards to the EDIS? Datalogging showed appropriate ignition advance.

If the EDIS was not controlling the timing based on a signal from the T4M0 I can only think of one scenario that explains the strong performance of this engine in spite of it and that is as follows: Making two possible assumptions based on Perry's statements that 1) EDIS was limiting advance to 10 degrees in limp mode and 2) Static timing may have been advanced 10 degrees due to relying on Probst's 60 degree figure rather than the 50 that Perry states is correct (and I'm not certain this is the case here) it is possible that the actual timing was between 20 and 30 degrees at all times, and with a blower application this may have been satisfactory. This scenario also assumes that the twwcer can datalog correct timing information while the EDIS is in limp mode, and I have no idea if that is correct or not.

I hope this information helps the discussion. I see that I have even more reason to put a timing light on it and look to see exactly what is happening with the spark, but that will have to wait until after Christmas.

Jim

Sabio · Post by **Sabio** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:56 am

1) EDIS was limiting advance to 10 degrees in limp mode and 2) Static timing may have been advanced 10 degrees due to relying on Probst's 60 degree figure rather than the 50 that Perry states is correct (and I'm not certain this is the case here) it is possible that the actual timing was between 20 and 30 degrees at all times, and with a blower application this may have been satisfactory. This scenario also assumes that the twwcer can datalog correct timing information while the EDIS is in limp mode, and I have no idea if that is correct or not.

The EEC get a IDM Signal after each spark!
The EDIS module confirms it´s timing by sending the IDM Signal!
The EEC compares the IDM with the SPOUT! If they are not matching together you get the"Check engine" light and the proper trouble code.
Conclusion is: your system runs well with the timing advance.
Can you confirm that?
greetings
S.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:01 am

The ultimate verification of timing control would be to check it with a timing light on one of the plug wires. I’m assuming a regular old timing light should work with EDIS, shouldn’t it? If it works the timing should move with the Spout Plug in of course.

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:57 pm

Everything works normally and I get no code indicating timing or ignition problems. I will run the timing light check when I get back home after christmas. Regular old timing light will work just fine. I'll check for timing advance as engine speed goes up. If I understand you correctly S, the processor will set a code if EDIS does not follow the advance the EEC-IV sets. But does this mean that the advance logged in the Tweecer is actual timing advance if no code is present? Sounds like it would just about have to be and if so then the system must be working properly. I'll let y'all know the results in a few days.

Jim

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:23 pm

I just checked the timing on the MG and indeed it does advance as engine speed goes up. I recall I had checked this originally with the L2W processor but this is the first time I have checked it with a timing light with the T4M0 processor. So this confirms that the EDIS module from the Crown Vic will work just fine with at least the T4M0 Mustang GT processor and perhaps with any of the SN95 processors as well. I had suspected this would be the case simply because the CV had edis with what was a very similar processor a year or two ahead of this SN95 processor being used. It would make good business sense to give the same capability to the later processors. Not that this means they would do it, but it's great news for you guys wanting to migrate to EDIS.

Jim

Sabio · Post by **Sabio** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:38 pm

Thank you very much for your report Jim!
Thats what I always said:It works

qikgts · Post by **qikgts** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:30 pm

Check this out...

http://www.bgsoflex.com/mjl/mjl_edis_summary.html

Some good info. As well, over on the EPEC board, http://www.vanirtech.com/cgi-bin/vanirt ... tion=intro
Sam Guido claims he had success running the EDIS with an EEC IV (go figure)...He didn't say which processor though.

Now for the questions...Do you need to make some sort of driveshaft for the oil pump to make this happen on a 302 block, or can whatever is in the Explorer block work? And, is there a way to use an aftermarket balancer with the "trigger wheel"?

Thanks,
Steve

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:04 pm

I can;t answer for the trigger wheel isue, but yes the cam sensor from the 96-01 5.0 explorers is what you want. It drives the oil pump and when properly installed and timed in, sends out a #1 compression stroke signal for the ECU.

Those can be found commonly on ebay or your local wrecking yard. Matco tools carries the Cam setting tool, like $25 I think. They are hard to get the right unit based on a description, but here is a listing;

Ford Cam Sensor

They all looked close to what is needed, but I think that number: FT6469 is the right one. I have seen 2 different sensors, one had a peg to trip the sensor, the other had a half moon. The half moon one should fit that tool exactly, not sure about the other one though. I have a Matco truck that comes to my work once a week, I might ask him to get one or two of them in so I can see what works. BUT That could be a while so don;t hold your breath.[/url]

Sabio · Post by **Sabio** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:46 am

I found another very interesting article about EDIS!
http://www.alternativeauto.com/waterbox ... /edis.html

wkstill · Post by **wkstill** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:43 am

Apperantly, the A9L supports EDIS, but it doesn't look like the T4M0 does.

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:46 pm

Sabio, I was looking for that article that referenced the "FMS" EDIS unit, but thier site was down for upgrades. Lidio is very knowledgable on that system.

I got a look at the Cam sensor, FT6470 on the Matco truck. It looks to be the right one for my '98 explorer half moon sensor, but I am not sure about the '99 with the pin. I will bring the sensors to work next Fri to test them on..

Larry

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:24 pm

Wkstill: The T4M0 does indeed support EDIS, that's what I'm using in my MG.

***Important info for those considering a custom EDIS!: Today I pulled the timing plug and checked base timing with a timing light.

The result was 20 degrees. (Incidentally, for those naysayers, the advance does work when the plug is in.)

This means that the Probst book is off by 10 degrees. Instead of the -1 tooth centerline leading the sensor by 60 degrees as mine is, for 10 degrees base timing the -1 tooth should lead the sensor by 50 degrees.

This is important information. It means that if you can mount the sensor 50 degrees counter clockwise from the 0 timing mark the missing tooth should center up on the timing mark on the damper.

Jim

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:31 pm

Jim Blackwood wrote:Wkstill: The T4M0 does indeed support EDIS, that's what I'm using in my MG.

***Important info for those considering a custom EDIS!: Today I pulled the timing plug and checked base timing with a timing light.

The result was 20 degrees. (Incidentally, for those naysayers, the advance does work when the plug is in.)

This means that the Probst book is off by 10 degrees. Instead of the -1 tooth centerline leading the sensor by 60 degrees as mine is, for 10 degrees base timing the -1 tooth should lead the sensor by 50 degrees.

This is important information. It means that if you can mount the sensor 50 degrees counter clockwise from the 0 timing mark the missing tooth should center up on the timing mark on the damper.

Jim

HRMMMM Jim, I find your discovery of the timing being 20* to be of interest. When I was trying to get the 4.6L ECU to run my 5.0 I noticed much of the time the timing was jumping to 20*. This is with a FACTORY FORD set-up of the crank sensor and wheel as I was using all Explorer motor and electronics with a Cobra ECU.

On another note. the part number I listed IS the one for the '96-98 explorer cam senders. I bought one after I checked that it fit. all the '99+ used part number FT6470.

Ans yet ANOTHER note - I have found that the 96/96 explorers do NOT USE PATS!! I just bought one from a yard and should have it by the end of the week for testing. I hope to hear from mike about buying my '98 ECUso he can start to crack the explorer ECU's. THat will give everyone access to DIS on a 5.0!!

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:26 pm

As for sensors, I use the crank sensor from a 4.6L crown vic and it works fine, but the cam sensor looks to be the same except for length and I've also got a new Escort sensor kicking around here somewhere. I think any of them will work, as they're all designed to generate a waveform pretty close to a sinewave and the only difference might be the phase and amplitude. That leaves much room for finding one that will fit the available space.

I just installed the damper on the I-H engine today and things are lining up nicely. Maybe tomorrow I'll get the sensor mount completed.

Jim

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:45 pm

YAHOO!!! SHE RUNS!!!!

OK everyone.. those following my build here are the latest stats.

ALL 1996-8 explorer electronics and DIS, deleted EGR/DPFE. 94/95 GT intakes with matching TB. '99 Explorer block with GT40X alum heads. Custom cam (237/247dur @ .050, .480lift) #24 injectors.

The injectors are a issue, they are bigger than the ECU thinks they are, so she runs rich and is a bit tempermental. a bad Brake MC has the car in the garage, but it does run. Ihave a set of #19's ion the way tomorrow, so should be able to test more later this week..

The cool thing is I do NOT need twEECer to get it to run!! (saveing it for th track car now) The 96&97 Explorer ECUs are NOT PATS equiped. and it fired right up the 1st try..

Right now she will idle for a little while then suddenly jump up to 1700rpm and NOT come down at all. I am thinking it is the IAC openeing up, maybe due to being overly rich etc. time will tell on that.. One thing I want to look at since we don;t have twEECer support for explorers yet is to make a bracket to adjust the crank sensor and thus alter timing.

FYI - I checked my timing and it sits at 20-24* at idle..

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:42 am

Way cool Larry. Is that timing figure with the spout plug pulled or not? If you haven't seen it yet, check out this page and the related site: http://www.nilesedge.org/wiki/index.php ... alibration it could help.

Jim

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:16 am

Jim Blackwood wrote:Way cool Larry. Is that timing figure with the spout plug pulled or not? If you haven't seen it yet, check out this page and the related site: http://www.nilesedge.org/wiki/index.php ... alibration it could help.

Jim

Well with this DIS system there is no spout that I can see. But after reading some of that page you list, it talks about disabling IAC valve and setting idle that way. The issue is that with DIS there IS no timing adjusting, that said I talked to a guy with a 99 explorer and he said he timting sits high like that under normal idle and it is a function of the EFI system. When my car spiked the idle timing did jump up and was in the 30*+ range at 1700-1800RPM.

BUt I will go thru thier routine to make sure the EEC is seeing what it wants. I really need to get the Data plug on the harness and jumper it to make sure I reset the ECU. I heard rumblings that the EECV can only be cleared by jumpering, not just disconnecting like the EEC-IV.

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 8:08 am

UPDATE -
WELL, looks like there is something wrong witht he wiring harness or ECU or SOMETHING! GRRRR

I am not getting spark from #1&6, as verified by timing light and plugs being wet and charred. I rememebr having this issue with the Cobra ECU for a while. last week this new set-up ran fine, but now no #1&6. if I pull the plug wires most of the way out of the coil packs they start arcing to thier contact points in the coil and firing just fine!?!?? That is really messing with me. Anyone have any ideas??

At this point I am getting a bit beyond pissed and this weekend I am going to start hacking the 95 cobra harness I have to fit the car, and maybe just go normal distributor system. Plus the 95 cobra ECU is twEECer supported so I can kill and check engine lights etc, but I really wated the coil packs, so let me know if you have any ideas. I have already swapped out coil pakcs and plug wires, so those are fine.

Jim Blackwood · Post by **Jim Blackwood** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:27 am

Larry, don't overlook the obvious, swap in some known good plugs, or hook those to known good cylinders and check for spark in the open air. If you have spark at the coil it has to be downstream.

JIm

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:57 pm

That was my thinking to, but why would it start arcing and firing when I pull the wires partially out of the coil pakcS?? I REALLY want to use the DIS system, but at this point if I don;t get it running with EFI I may burry it out back!!

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:55 pm

Well an update - Now 1 & 6 fire, but #5 is not?? I did not really change anything so this is getting frustrating. I also noticed that timing has bumped up again and was sitting int ht 30* range idling at 1000-1100.

Abviously something is just not right. For now I am going to yank it all out, and modify the 95cobra harness I have to fit the car and at least get her roadworthy. I will keep tinkering with the DIS in hopes of running it next year maybe.

Skankin · Post by **Skankin** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:38 pm

Eliminating the Distributor cap with an EDIS adaptor is a GREAT idea.

Unfortunately, the Hall-effect PIP/TFI are not reliable at high RPM either.

Crane cams is now making distributors that are optically triggered. The list a 5.0 HO application, but I haven't checked to see if that is EFI compatable...

Some info:
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=newProdDistributor
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=newPromoDistributors
http://64.90.9.168/cranecams/pdf/90007500a.pdf

If I could eliminate the TFI/PIP AND the distributor cap, I'd be very happy.

I've currently got the tweecer, with the stock A9L and EEC-IV harness... I'd prefer not to change it out! (yes, plug-n-play would be very cool).

MSD offers a standalone system, but they use a hall-effect distributor plug and a crank-trigger wheel... and it's VERY pricie.

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:32 pm

I LOVE the idea, but it would not work for Ford EFI. Ford adjusts timing in the ditributor, those don't look to have a mechanism to do that?? Though the specs say 5.0L??

I am not sure what you are talking about with the hall effect thing though. Alternative Auto has modified an EDIS onto a 2351W and said it supported a good 8k+ with no signes of problems. I was always told the crank trigger was more accurate and able to handle higher RPMs?

qikgts · Post by **qikgts** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:37 pm

Larry, are you sure that the dizzy actually "mechanically" advances or retards the timing? I do not believe that is the case. I always thought that the only parts under the distributor cap were the rotor and the PIP, and both of them were driven by the cam with nothing acting on the rotor to advance or retard timing events.

I thought that the timing advance occurs by changing the timing of the signal that fires the coil.

Perhaps someone else who has taken an EFI disrtibutor apart can clarify this....

lamrith · Post by **lamrith** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:21 pm

Well, maybe your right?? what kinfd of system does that new Dist use for advance/retard?? SOMETHING must be moving inside the distrib to change timing, and the ECU does control that., maybe it does just delay the firing of the coil?

ANYONE??

Skankin · Post by **Skankin** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:35 pm

The stock distributor has a hall-effect pickup, the signal tells the EEC when the #1 is at 60 Deg BTDC (maybe it's not 60?) on the compression stroke. The EEC decides how much timing it needs, signals the coil, the distributor distributes the spark.

The crane unit has an optical sensor, which initiates a synthetic PIP signal. This synthetic signal doesn't change with RPM (whereas it's degraded with the hall-effect). It doesn't have weights, it's all electronic. If you don't have an EEC, you can electronically adjust the timing curve.

I'm not sure how it works with the EEC.

Alternative used a crank trigger & the explorer distributor plug (which has a hall-effect pickup and sends a PIP signal to the EEC).

The crank trigger is more accurate for three reasons.
1) the signal comes from the crank... no cam indexing or timing chain issues.
2) they tend to use a better sensor/pickup.
3) these systems generally use multiple coils (so they have more time to recharge at higher RPM).

That said, I'm not keen on the sensor being exposed to the elements, I don't feel like changing the timing chain cover etc... and I've gotta drive the oil pump, plug the distributor hole & send the EEC a pip signal anyway... so an optical distributor would be great!

Unfortunately, it still has a cap and rotor that'll wear out... and multiple coils would be better.

Thus, I'm currious about adapting the EDIS and coils :D

I'd like to figure out how to use the PIP, rather than adding the crank trigger though... just keep it simple.

Skankin · Post by **Skankin** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:45 pm

So what vehicles came with the early DIS ignition? (not EDIS)
Did they have a crank sensor as well as the distributor sensor?

It seems the V6 SHO and the 2.3L dual plug engines had DIS. They wouldn't support 8 cylinders though :(

Skankin · Post by **Skankin** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:28 pm

Hall-effect:
http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterpoin ... int3_1.pdf

Don"t mean to hijack...

TFI to edis

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