Anything about Ford EEC tuning. TwEECer and Moates questions dominate, but there's some SCT and OBD-II knowledge too.

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ryans88gt
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Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Mon May 19, 2014 8:26 am

Like the title says.

Engine is a 393w with 36 lb/hr injectors, 70mm throttle body, edelbrock vic jr heads. 11:1 compression with a 248/252 108 deg LSA 550 lift camp with fairly agressive ramp rate.

I built a tune where all I really did was raise the idle to ~900, changed injector slopes, and MAF transfer function.

Runs great cold. Once it gets hot, it still runs great, but when I lift off the throttle and put it in neutral it wants to die if I don't pump the throttle once or twice.

I have a quarterhorse and haven't gotten it to sync up correctly to datalog yet. I know I know, more data would be useful here.

Any help on some things to change that might be diagnostic of the problem?

I do have a wide band and the car idles around 15.5-16.0 when in CL, I checked and recalibrated wideband. New O2 sensors.

I have read a little bit about compensating for big cams, but haven't yet done anything.

Not necessarily looking for "the" answer, but at least, what are some levers I can pull to see if there is any improvement.

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cgrey8
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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by cgrey8 » Mon May 19, 2014 9:30 am

My guess is your Closed Throttle(CT) decel is truly lean and is conking the engine out because of over-lean condition at a vulnerable condition. But before I corrected for that, what I'd do instead is reduce the DASPOT rate to slow down just how fast the ISC closes off when you go CT. This should help.

However another scenario to test for is if this is a manual, even if this fixes the problem, it might not fix the scenario where you declutch after being at CT for a few seconds. The scenario is you are driving along, go down a long hill with the vehicle in gear but at CT. Then at the bottom of the hill, you declutch. Depending how the tune is setup, DASPOT might be depleted and thus any slowing that you did wouldn't help you in this scenario. The only fix for this scenario's conk condition is to either enrich the decel condition OR raise the minimum ISC position while moving (i.e. MPH > a scalar value). I know GUFx has this problem when DFSO is active, but I just don't know CBAZA well enough to know if this is an issue CBAZA users have to deal with.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by 2Shaker » Thu May 22, 2014 8:04 am

Keep in mind that CBAZA shuts off the injectors completely on most decel conditions.
94 GT, CBAZA/J4J1, 347 (on a R302 block), F303 cam, Performer II Intake, 1.7 Crane RR's, 1 5/8 Shorties, 70MM BBK TB, C&L 85mm Tuner MAF, Pro-Charger D1SC, 60#'s, TKO 600. Runs 11:80's

decipha

Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by decipha » Fri May 23, 2014 10:48 am

dial in idle air and poof.. issues resolved

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Tue May 27, 2014 9:52 pm

what should I be tuning with to adjust the idle air, just the low end of the MAF transfer, or is there something else I should be looking at?

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by Paulie » Wed May 28, 2014 9:37 am

ryans88gt wrote:what should I be tuning with to adjust the idle air, just the low end of the MAF transfer, or is there something else I should be looking at?
http://info.efidynotuning.com/idleair101.htm
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sat May 31, 2014 4:32 pm

OK, I read that and understand very little of it.

I was able to get my data acquisition working. I raised my idle to 1000 and got the idle air adjustment screw set so that the IAC can control the idle +- 300 rpms. Set TPS voltage.

MAF voltage was at 0.9v idling, which calls for 51 kg/hr air based on the MAF transfer I am using. It is idling in the 15.5:1 range. Lambse seems to be calling for about 13:1. When I raised the maf transfer function in this area around 15%, the idle richened to 14:1 and it idled like shit and I could smell the unburnt fuel. Also Load % was around 28% at idle and a quarter throttle blip made it instantly go to 100%.

Car runs pretty well other than wanting to die when warm and going to closed throttle clutch in. I haven't been able to data log and decent running time due to no vin#, license, registration, or insurance (factory five kit car). Also a bit rich at WOT (around 10:1), should be calling for around 12.5:1

I attached the current bin file I am using.

Open to suggestions.
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roadster9-16-13.bin
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Stengun
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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by Stengun » Sat May 31, 2014 5:40 pm

Howdy Ryan,

I've seen your post before on ffcars.

Where do you have your O2 sensors and WB sensors mounted in the exhaust? Also do you have your sidepipes installed?

My car is a Spyder with the Coupe's 2-1 headers and I've found that I cannot get any accurate readings off the O2 sensors or the WB without my sidepipes installed.

I understand your "OK, I read that and understand very little of it." statement because I feel the same way. I've had to reread and reread and reread the write ups to get any of it to soak in to my dense skull.

Paul
FFR Spyder GT 414cid 351W Edelbrock Vic Jr w/ 60lb injectors, AFM N-71 cam, AFR 205 heads, Probe forged crank, rods and pistons. EEC-V FTE0 CDAN4 BE w/QH.


"A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The 'United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'" (Author unknown) Federally medicated Disabled Combat Veteran for YOUR safety.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sat May 31, 2014 5:42 pm

Side note, I have PRLDSW set to 1, stock T4MO calibration has it set to 2. I see some people suggest setting it to 0.

I expect the engine to do a little better than 115% VE. I have scale the spark and fuel tables to 200 and 150...

I have not scaled load. I did correct the CID to reflect actual.

Should I be using the 0 setting for PRLDSW?

It has been a few years since I did any tuning that didn't involve a mechanical secondaries carb and mechanical advance distributor.... so bear with me and try to use terms that I might have a chance of understanding :biggrin:

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sat May 31, 2014 5:46 pm

Stengun wrote:Howdy Ryan,

I've seen your post before on ffcars.

Where do you have your O2 sensors and WB sensors mounted in the exhaust? Also do you have your sidepipes installed?

My car is a Spyder with the Coupe's 2-1 headers and I've found that I cannot get any accurate readings off the O2 sensors or the WB without my sidepipes installed.

I understand your "OK, I read that and understand very little of it." statement because I feel the same way. I've had to reread and reread and reread the write ups to get any of it to soak in to my dense skull.

Paul
I have both my wideband 02 and narrowbands mounted in the side pipes just past the merge of the collector. I think they get plenty hot there, basis the golden color of the high temp paint.

I think a lot of the not understanding this comes from using tunerpro with completely different names for a lot of the inputs.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by Stengun » Sat May 31, 2014 11:25 pm

Howdy Ryan,

I think your sensors are way too far away from the engine. It's worse that long tube headers.

I would move them closer to the engine.

Paul
FFR Spyder GT 414cid 351W Edelbrock Vic Jr w/ 60lb injectors, AFM N-71 cam, AFR 205 heads, Probe forged crank, rods and pistons. EEC-V FTE0 CDAN4 BE w/QH.


"A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The 'United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'" (Author unknown) Federally medicated Disabled Combat Veteran for YOUR safety.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:16 pm

IDK, they are closer to the engine than long tubes in a mustang for sure.

There is no closer location to mount them that wouldn't result in tuning a single cylinder with the 4 into 4 headers.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:18 pm

Anyone?
ryans88gt wrote:Side note, I have PRLDSW set to 1, stock T4MO calibration has it set to 2. I see some people suggest setting it to 0.

I expect the engine to do a little better than 115% VE. I have scale the spark and fuel tables to 200 and 150...

I have not scaled load. I did correct the CID to reflect actual.

Should I be using the 0 setting for PRLDSW?

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by Stengun » Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:50 pm

Howdy Ryan,

Yeah, it's not a perfect setup but most people just use one cylinder per side.

With my dual 2 into 1 headers I can at lest sample two cylinders per side.

Paul
FFR Spyder GT 414cid 351W Edelbrock Vic Jr w/ 60lb injectors, AFM N-71 cam, AFR 205 heads, Probe forged crank, rods and pistons. EEC-V FTE0 CDAN4 BE w/QH.


"A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The 'United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'" (Author unknown) Federally medicated Disabled Combat Veteran for YOUR safety.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:27 pm

Don't seem to be having a problem with the HEGOs, and relocating them isn't an option. So moving on... :)

I decreased Dashpot rate and played around with increasing the low load low rpm timing

Doesn't die any more, but still has a bit of stumble when declutching throttle closed.

continuing to play around with things... open to recommended changes to the tune

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:52 am

When it stumbles on declutch, is the engine going lean or rich?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ryans88gt
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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:34 am

Doesn't really seem to be either, but if anything it seems to be idling a bit on the lean side, especially prior to being all the way up to operating temp. But the stumble seems to get worse when it is up to operating temp.

Once it is titled/insured/plated I will be able to drive it more and do some datalogging.

sec of state police come for the inspection on next tuesday.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:42 am

If the problem isn't fuel related, then perhaps the DASPOT is simply decaying too fast or your minimum clip for airflow is too low.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:29 pm

what function controls "minimum clip for airflow" in CBAZA strategy?

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:36 pm

I don't know what CBAZA calls it, but in GUFx, it's DASMIN (Idle - ISC Minimum Daspot Clip For Declutch).

And the daspot decay rate function is FN879 (Idle - ISC Dashpot Decay Rate).

CBAZA may or may not call them the same thing. Although I would expect it to have them in some form. But I could be wrong...
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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85GT
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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by 85GT » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:50 pm

Closest thing I find:

Dashpot Min Clip Low Gears - FN894 - Used to prevent declutch stalls in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears in manual transmission vehicles. Input value is the difference in between actual and lowest rpm recorded during closed throttle.

also:
Dashpot Pre Position - FN830 - A dashpot (pre position air flow) offset determined by the difference in rpm and the desired idle rpm.
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB

decipha

Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by decipha » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:49 am

read the dashpot write up

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:23 pm

decipha wrote:read the dashpot write up
I did, doesn't seem to discuss at all CBAZA strategy and how it works. A lot of the Dashpot functions are at least labeled differently if not different functions.

Here are the functions I can find... see attached.
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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:25 pm

recommended changes?

And did I mention this has a large cam? It's 248 deg @ 0.050 with 110 overlap, not a ton of vacuum, maybe 8" at idle.

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:25 pm

anyone suggest what dashpot values are equivalent to GufB strategy changes?

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:44 pm

anyone

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:32 am

Can anyone explain what the preposition/preposition max clip/dashpot max clip vs. mph/dashpot min clip in low gears... are and how they work together?

Currently the tune is pretty good, but I still have a declutch issue where the engine dips to about 700 rpms with a little stumble and then returns to normal idle at 900 rpms.

I want to increase the cruising ISC duty cycle and slow down the transition to get rid of the stumble.


idle is good around 14.5:1, everything else seems to be working correctly.

decipha

Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by decipha » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:10 am

decipha wrote:read the dashpot write up
read it again, cbaza is covered

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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:57 pm

So... anyway...

Got my wideband reading about the same as LAMDSE... but for some reason the computer is calling for around 16:1 at light cruise which is causing the car some lean surge and missing. But I have no idea why LAMBDSE is requesting that lean. Engine up to temp, ECT reading 174, ACT reading 102. Some multiplier I missed?? Am I drunk??



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Re: Tuning CBAZA... dies when returning to idle when hot

Post by ryans88gt » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:03 pm

And I am getting a lean stumble on throttle closing. What functions can be changed to smooth out the lean spot on closing throttle.

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