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88mustanggt
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Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:42 am

2014_Dec_16_08-33-34.csv
a few pulls
(645.74 KiB) Downloaded 589 times
not sure if its in the tune or mechanical issue. if someone could please look it over and give me some ideas. ive been beating my head against the wall trying to figure it out. it feels like a rev limiter . put a fuel pressure gauge on it and it, was at 50psi till it hit the wall and dropped to 40psi at 5k as it fell on its face.
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new round cl active.BIN
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88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

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Paulie
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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by Paulie » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:12 am

What are your plugs gapped at? Could be spark blowout.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

88mustanggt
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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:04 am

Wouldn't it go rich instead of lean with spark blow out? And it's been along time sense they were put in I'm not 100% sure , guess I should pull a plug and check. Dam p heads..
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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cgrey8
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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:12 am

88mustanggt wrote:Wouldn't it go rich instead of lean with spark blow out? And it's been along time sense they were put in I'm not 100% sure , guess I should pull a plug and check...
Any time you have a misfire of any kind where the fuel didn't get combusted correctly or at all, the sensors will see that as a lean condition purely due to the presence of unburned oxygen in the exhaust despite what the actual AFR was in the cylinder.

I doubt this is it, but looking in your tune, FN367 is misconfigured. Top value is 15.0. It should be absolute max value. Put in say 100 and BE will adjust the value to the max possible value.

I didn't see anything else doing a VERY quick once-over of the tune. My guess is going to be fuel pump, fuel lines, or injectors not able to keep up. I didn't have time to look at the datalog.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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88mustanggt
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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:43 am

pulled a plug it was at .30 any suggestions? I was leaning to fuel injectors but don't want to blindly start buying parts.
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by cgrey8 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:12 pm

Confirm your injectors aren't maxing out. You can do that from the datalog. Just see if the Injector Duty Cycle is anywhere near 100%. If they are, then there's one problem. If they are going 100% right as you are going lean, that's most likely the problem.

If injector PWs don't look suspect, then check fuel pressure. Setup a pressure gauge so you can see it while driving. Then take it out and make it happen. See if fuel pressure is holding steady as the cutout begins. If you see it dropping at or just before the loss of power, then the fuel pump/fuel lines are not up to the task.

If it's neither of those, then you can at least eliminate them as possible suspects.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 2Shaker » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:28 am

Is he pegging the MAF?
94 GT, CBAZA/J4J1, 347 (on a R302 block), F303 cam, Performer II Intake, 1.7 Crane RR's, 1 5/8 Shorties, 70MM BBK TB, C&L 85mm Tuner MAF, Pro-Charger D1SC, 60#'s, TKO 600. Runs 11:80's

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:23 pm

they arnt to 100 % but they have been in the mid 80% I did post a datalog.

I did set up a pressure gauge as per 1st post. and fuel pressure drops from 50 to 40 as the issue happens.

I have a 255lph in take, and stock everything else beside fpr and injectors (42lbs) . I would find it hard to believe that I am taxing the rest of the fuel system?

should I try around .025 gap ? is the factory ignition system going to be an issue at any point?
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by decipha » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:25 pm

88mustanggt wrote:fuel pressure drops from 50 to 40 as the issue happens.
I didnt bother to look over the logs or the rest of the thread for that matter but based on this alone you have a fuel supply issue

also, with an injector duty cycle of 80% or more you should really consider larger injectors

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by cgrey8 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:00 pm

decipha wrote:I didnt bother to look over the logs or the rest of the thread for that matter but based on this alone you have a fuel supply issue

also, with an injector duty cycle of 80% or more you should really consider larger injectors
Ditto...
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:08 pm

would It be injectors and pump? or is this where new lines come into play as well? I didn't think I was that close to the limit of the stock system with a 255 in tank
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by Paulie » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:47 pm

The highest injector duty cycle I see in your log is 85%. While you don't have much reserve left, the injectors are probably not the problem. If your fuel pressure is dropping from 50psi to 40psi when this is happening you could have a fuel pump issue. But if you are losing boost at the same point that could also cause the drop in fuel pressure.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:57 am

boost wasn't dropping, just fuel pressure. shouldn't a 255 be enough for my combo? any recommendations
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by Paulie » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:02 pm

88mustanggt wrote:boost wasn't dropping, just fuel pressure. shouldn't a 255 be enough for my combo? any recommendations
Not necessarily. How old is the fuel filter? How old is the pump? What brand? Is it a genuine Walbro? Its possible you have a voltage drop and the pump doesn't have enough voltage to work properly. The hose between the pump and the hanger could be leaking. A 255lph may not be enough, every combo is different.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

decipha

Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by decipha » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:38 pm

255*2.8=714 rwhp N/A and *0.8= 571rwhp boosted

all from the pre tune info

http://info.efidynotuning.com/pre.htm

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:21 pm

Perhaps you explain this further in your link but what you posted up for a formula doesn't take into account the drop in flowrate of a fuel pump as the fuel pressure goes up. At 40PSI, a fuel pump rated for 255lph might deliver somewhere around that. But under boosted conditions and/or applications where an adjustable FPR has the fuel pressure raised above stock, the actual flowrate of the pump will likely be less than rated assuming the rated value is accurate. Here's an example Walbro in-line 255lph pump flow curve.
Image
The chart is in gph, not lph, but you can do the conversion easy enough. However just save people a little time, here's some conversions:
255 lph = 67.4 gph
240 lph = 63.4 gph
220 lph = 58.1 gph

I don't know if this is the problem he's having...just something I thought worth mentioning since it's an easy thing to overlook if really high boost pressures are involved.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by jchambers » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:55 am

In ten years of doing dyno tuning I have never seen a single 255lph pump even come close to 571RWHP in a boosted application. I establish expectations for a 255lph pump application to 380RWHP in a mildly boosted application, 420 RWHP if a boost-a-pump is used. I know what the math says, but real world environment has way more variables in play. LIke cgrey had shown, pressure and voltage alone have a tremendous impact on the pump output.
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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:14 pm

thanks for the help, I did change spark plus and reduced the gap a little, it will go above 5k now, however I now know that I have a fuel issue up top even if it wasn't causing my issue. so time to figure out what to shove in the tank.
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

decipha

Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by decipha » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:49 pm

jchambers wrote:In ten years of doing dyno tuning I have never seen a single 255lph pump even come close to 571RWHP in a boosted application. I establish expectations for a 255lph pump application to 380RWHP in a mildly boosted application, 420 RWHP if a boost-a-pump is used. I know what the math says, but real world environment has way more variables in play. LIke cgrey had shown, pressure and voltage alone have a tremendous impact on the pump output.
that sounds about right for returnless pumps, Ive taken a single in tank 255 return style pump to 550rwhp boosted before, I usually upgrade at that point but have done so numerous times with no probs

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by EDS50 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:21 pm

Leave the 255 in the tank and install an inline pump such as a t-rex or gs392 and problem solved; As long as its tuned properly and your not pegging your meter or experiencing some other mechanically or electrically related issue.
1992 Mustang LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 333 on Meth, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9P Tune, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

2003 Mach 1 - CoreTuning RYAK1/ZYA2 QH Tuned, Borla Atak Cat Back, Long Tubes/Off Road X-Pipe, Twin 65mm TB, JLT CAI, ICT Billet Intake Spacer, BMR Tubular K-Member and A-arms, Maximum Motorsports coil overs with Bilstein Suspension, Steeda Adj. Rear Upper/Lower Control Arms, QA1 Bump Steer, Steeda Short Throw Shifter, WOT Box, 315/35/17's.

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by 88mustanggt » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:00 am

sounds good, cause I think I have one on the shelf!!
88 fox, 302, gt40 heads, intake, stock cam, long tubes, ati procharger 42lbs, 05 slot , infront of a viper t56

AL9, GUFB, QUARTERHOURSE. BE/EA

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Re: Hitting a wall at 5k

Post by EDS50 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:02 pm

88mustanggt wrote:sounds good, cause I think I have one on the shelf!!
Awesome. Let us know how it works out.
1992 Mustang LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 333 on Meth, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9P Tune, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

2003 Mach 1 - CoreTuning RYAK1/ZYA2 QH Tuned, Borla Atak Cat Back, Long Tubes/Off Road X-Pipe, Twin 65mm TB, JLT CAI, ICT Billet Intake Spacer, BMR Tubular K-Member and A-arms, Maximum Motorsports coil overs with Bilstein Suspension, Steeda Adj. Rear Upper/Lower Control Arms, QA1 Bump Steer, Steeda Short Throw Shifter, WOT Box, 315/35/17's.

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