Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

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Kingfish999
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Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:52 pm

Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

Post by Kingfish999 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:59 pm

i understand a few things about tuning but alot of it goes over my head. and the stuff i do understand doesnt seem to work out at all. i tried alot of things but i jsut cant get good results. think im about to throw in the towel but maybe i jsut need some advice. i drove around from 11pm till 4am last night datalogging, tuning, testing, repeating. yet i made almost no progress other than rigging a tune that seems to respond only alittle better than the factory tune.

so first i have a 96 Bronco 425ci bored/stroked 351w with 185 AFR heads, Comp Cams 35-514-8 cam and 1.6 rockers Trickflow 75mm intake and throttlebody, and a ProM 75mm MAF calibrated for 42lb injectors, it has a E4OD auto tranny with a 2300-2500 stall. its TIN3 catch code and AGANF strategy so its different than alot of the stuff some of you may be used to

so i recently just replaced my old FRPP 42lb EV1 injectors with some new genuine Bosch 42lb EV6 'Green Giants' (0280155968). i had reason to believe at the time the old injectors were not flowing evenly and thought the EV1 were too slow responding for idling being such a big injector. turns out it made no difference at all. but at least i know they are new and genuine and i still have the old spare for my next project. i have the flow sheets here for them. i am running at 35psi
Image
they are apparently almost exactly the same specs as the old FRPP injectors
http://i48.tinypic.com/2u76c9i.jpg

i have my MAF flow sheet here
Image

biggest problem is when i enter them in the tune. the truck runs super rich. the datalog shows both the long fuel trims pegged at -25% trying to lean it out. i do not have a wide band sensor so im trying to jsut do what i can. i try running the datalogs with EEC Analyzer and the MAF curve is all over the place and unusable. my vBat datalog is also unusable reading 45v so i cant really use EA to adjsut the injector offset or PW vs Fuel Trim. when i do PW vs Required, it wants me to enter in basically a 84lb injector which seems ridiculous. as an quick improvise, i multiplied the injector high and low slope by 1.25x figuring it would be a starting point since fuel trims are -25%. i dont really understand high and low slope, but the injectors are rated at 53.75 high and low of 57.5, i did not adjust those for 35psi fuel pressure but it does actually seem to work very well and now the fuel trims are much more manageable. the engine no longer pings when cruising when it use to be really bad and the

is this the proper way i should be doing this? or should i be adjsuting the MAF instead and keeping injector specs from the sheet? if adjsuting the injector size like this is fine, what is the proper way to do high and low slope? if i do need to adjsut through the MAF instead of the injector sizing, would it be wise to jsut multiply the maf curve by 0.75 to start with a baseline?

how important is the cam specs to enter? this seems to be the most successful thing i have done soo far and has helped help eliminate pinging even from the stock tune which would ping bad. but alot of the info filled in and estimated seems kinda excessive of being at 400 to 500 being average and some even higher up till 600. i have the timing event on the exhaust closed and all the specs for the cam done. when factory is between 280 and 316, im wondering if it might be hurting as well as helping. would hate if its firing injectors soo late that its going for the next combustion

as for mapping, i really dont know where i would enter some of these. such as spark
spark.jpg
spark.jpg (183.96 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
fuel trims, pulse width, and stuff like that
spark.jpg
spark.jpg (183.96 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
so any help i can get to make this truck run like i dream would really help
Attachments
fuel.jpg
fuel.jpg (241.51 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
96 Bronco 351w E4OD MAF
TIN3 (AGANF) w/ Quarterhorse
425W (4.100 stroke .060 bore 351W), AFR 185, TFS-R intake, 42lb injector, Comp Cam 35-514-8

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skunk
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Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:30 pm
Location: Newmarket, ON

Re: think i need help with tuning.

Post by skunk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:45 pm

LOL....sounds like an intro to an AA meeting :biggrin:

I know it gets frustrating but it doesn't have to be as difficult as some make it out to be. I myself have gone through all sorts of different attempts to get things to work together and have discovered there is very little that's needs changing in a stock tune. I will throw out to you what I find the easiest way to get going......everything after that you can consider fine tuning.

First....I write a stock tune with only changes for removed hardware and change in CID. I will leave injectors and Maf stock with the exception of making sure to zero the minimum MAF Volts the ECU considers it to have failed and to add a couple of data points down low in an attempt to get idle rpm as low as possible. Something like this.....this is the GUFB A9L on right and somewhat adjusted on left for 42# calibration.

Code: Select all

15.9998	889.977	15.9998	835.482
4.7681	889.977	4.7681	835.482
4.4431	741.067	4.4431	695.443
4.1770	634.928	4.1770	595.958
3.8860	532.275	3.8860	499.642
3.5439	425.503	3.5439	399.206
3.3550	370.375	3.3550	347.563
3.1489	315.246	3.1489	295.603
2.9099	259.167	2.9099	243.326
2.6941	215.128	2.6941	201.821
2.5820	194.534	2.5820	182.494
2.4500	171.722	2.4500	161.267
2.3159	151.762	2.3159	142.257
2.1541	127.683	2.1541	120.079
1.9890	106.772	1.9890	100.118
1.8899	95.683	1.8899	90.297
1.8030	87.128	1.8030	82.376
1.6909	76.990	1.6909	72.871
1.5740	67.168	1.5740	62.416
1.4680	59.247	1.4680	54.178
1.3210	49.109	1.3210	44.673
1.1819	40.237	1.1819	36.752
1.0911	35.802	1.0911	32.634
0.8840	26.614	0.8840	23.762
0.7500	21.861	0.7500	18.693
0.5710	15.842	0.5710	13.624
0.4141	12.040	0.0000	13.624
0.2500	8.871	0.0000	13.624
0.0000	7.287	0.0000	13.624
0.0000	7.287	0.0000	13.624
LOL....I hit submit instead of preview.....I will continue in another post
John
1987 Turbocoupe.
A3M1/A9L, BE/EA, Tweecer RT.
306,Single Turbo, Ported E7's, Ported Stock Intake, 42lb Matched Green Tops, PMAS 3" Blow-Thru Protube (42# supercharger calibrated),T5z, 3.73 gears
..... Nothin Fancy.......Just something to keep me from the honey-do list.........

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skunk
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Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:30 pm
Location: Newmarket, ON

Re: think i need help with tuning.

Post by skunk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:05 pm

Continued

I load up that tune and attempt to fire the engine....it may not fire right away. If putting your foot to the floor on the throttle helps...you will need to reduce Cranking Fuel. If it starts and runs rough or chokes and dies, you need to figure out which way to adjust the MAF until you can get it to idle on its own.

Once it idles on its own I begin with logging a slow steady free rev up to around 2000 rpm. Run that through EAs MAF calculator but instead of taking what it spits out and putting it into the tune.....I look at the average percentage of change and apply that to the entire MAF kg/hr in the tune. Reason being, it will change for running conditions so no sense spending a lot of time on it free revving. I load the new tune with the MAF adjustment, log another free rev up to 3-4000 rpm and repeat the adjustment process. Once I'm confident that my curve will get me around the block.......I go for short gentle ride, no need to go WOT yet....you work up to that. Review your datalogs and adjust as needed.

Since your trying to do this without a wideband....you need to stay closed loop as long as possible and you need to disable Adaptive Learning. When you run logs through EA you can select "wideband correction" hit "calculate" and enter 14.64. This will get you close but does seem to take longer without actual WB feedback. For your high load openloop conditions....you really need a WB otherwise your relying on a hope and a prayer.

Once you have a fairly accurate MAF curve you now go in to correct LOAD.. you will notice its been running low. That's OK...it helps keep you in closed loop. There is a couple of ways to correct this....I prefer to scale UP otherwise its a lot more work. Its as easy as multiplying your MAF kg/hr, High Slope, Low Slope and Breakpoint by the same percentage. So for 42's multiply by 2.21 (ive found 2.1 works well) and your load numbers should align with the rest of the factory tune making it easier to see where things need tweaking.

As for your question about CAM specs....I have mine set to factory specs....its user preference, I feel its better to fire early unless you need help for emissions or trying to get rid of an idle fuel smell.

Hope that's some help...wifes calling me for dinner. I will look my post over later to see what I forgot.
John
1987 Turbocoupe.
A3M1/A9L, BE/EA, Tweecer RT.
306,Single Turbo, Ported E7's, Ported Stock Intake, 42lb Matched Green Tops, PMAS 3" Blow-Thru Protube (42# supercharger calibrated),T5z, 3.73 gears
..... Nothin Fancy.......Just something to keep me from the honey-do list.........

Kingfish999
Gear Head
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:52 pm

Re: Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

Post by Kingfish999 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:59 am

at this point i feel i would rather pay somebody. anybody recommend somebody who could give me a decent tune. i just am over this BS.... everything i do makes it worse than stock tune. only advantage i have gotten is the cam timing that i no longer ping so i can probably use 87 octane now.
96 Bronco 351w E4OD MAF
TIN3 (AGANF) w/ Quarterhorse
425W (4.100 stroke .060 bore 351W), AFR 185, TFS-R intake, 42lb injector, Comp Cam 35-514-8

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EDS50
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Location: Tampa Bay, FL
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Re: Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

Post by EDS50 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:36 pm

I am not quite sure I would run garbage 87 octane with your engine combination. Are you using a wideband to tune? Keep in mind any time you make fuel or maf related changes with adaptive learning enabled, you MUST clear the kamrfs after making the changes and writing them to the hardware..If you are using a properly calibrated maf for your set up, there is no need to change the fuel injector slopes, breakpoint, offset or maf curve.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

Kingfish999
Gear Head
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:52 pm

Re: Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

Post by Kingfish999 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:35 pm

havent been driving the truck much. but i been doing some datalogging and combining them into a big log which has been working better in EA. now when it adjsuts the MAF curve its something more reasonable at least.

i dont know where 'adaptive learning' is to know if its enabled or disabled.

i cant easily install a wideband because the crappy 'exhaust' shop who did the exhaust put the cats directly after the collectors. i already have the o2 sensor there. biggest issue is the exhaust is made in a way that its channeled inside the frame and i have no way to remove it without a sawzall. im thinking i need to cut it all out and redo it, but i only have a stick welder and i dont have the skill to weld exhaust with it. i already tried when redoing the tailpipes and i kept burning holes though it.

Image

this was the shops idea of "it turned out well" when i asked for dual 2.5" in front of the tire
Image

i ordered 2 cheap 2.5" Walker tailpipes and welded them in. couple weeks ago. but like i said stick welding is not good for exhaust
Image
96 Bronco 351w E4OD MAF
TIN3 (AGANF) w/ Quarterhorse
425W (4.100 stroke .060 bore 351W), AFR 185, TFS-R intake, 42lb injector, Comp Cam 35-514-8

neonbeef
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Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Engine runs rich with just MAF and Injector parameters entered

Post by neonbeef » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:37 am

Resurrecting a dead thread because I caught an error.

Kingfish, the injector data you are using is incorrect. That is for the 0 250 150 558. I have seen this floating around the internet as well. However, the data sheet from Motors looks like it was copied, exactly, from here: https://performanceparts.ford.com/parts ... 3-f302.pdf.

You can see there are some pretty significant differences between the two:

Inj Model # Resistance (Ohm) Operating pressure (kPa) Q-stat (at operating pressure) (g/min)
0 250 155 968 12 380 349
0 250 150 558 14.5 270 310

I have attached a spreadsheet with the data for all Bosch injectors. But, it doesn't have the injector parameters you are looking for.

I am starting a thread on this to see if anyone has the calibration summary (i.e., AHISL, ALOSL, et cetera).
Attachments
m-9593-f302 Bosch 0 250 150 558.pdf
(13.48 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
Copy of Bosch_Injector_data.xls
(747.5 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
Be well, and have a great day!
Wayne

1992 Ford F150 Std Cab/Flareside/4X4/Toughened E4OD

393 Stroker/Eddie 5.8 EFI Intake and Heads/Fiveology Racing 76mm MAF & WAY1/Comp Cams XE 274/Eagle Rotating Assembly Kit/Green Giant Injectors/MSD Plugs, Wires, Distributor, 6AL Spark Box/9.9:1 compression

AHACB Strategy/Moates QH/BE - Core Tuning

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