[JuiceSC]

Your observation on cruise AFR being steady is definitely a good thing. I cant really see that looking at just the numbers.

On the voltage change, yea, smallest possible value down is fine.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here's a log on return from town. Hot start, WOT, cruising at several speeds and some cruise control.

Also, the log of the restart and idle. I let this run for 4 min.

JSCt14_LSLO_BP5 2024_Jun_30_16-35-00.7z

(955.68 KiB) Downloaded 1081 times

Idel_4min.7z

(224.84 KiB) Downloaded 1249 times

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I think this is the best looking log to date, based on KAMRFs. One side is adding a little, the other is pulling a little fuel.

Nudge high slope a little higher, add 0.2.
Set FN389 injetor breakpoint to 2.4.
Clear KAM, Load this change with the engine warmed up, let it learn idle before you go for a spin and log please.

After this log, I think its time to work on idle air, fueling I feel is now close enough to do so. Am I correct you raised Throttle body airflow to reduce initial startup flare? If not, tell me what raising TB airflow did for you.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Am I correct you raised Throttle body airflow to reduce initial startup flare? If not, tell me what raising TB airflow did for you.

For the life of me, I can't remember the details as to why these settings are what they are! I went back through this thread and it appears that sometime in late Feb, early Mar, we made some changes in that area. I can't seem to find any hard data as I have deleted a lot of what went on back then, just to prevent some confusion.... well, here we are!

On this subject, however, that last two initial starts of the day have resulted in a "flare up" and near stalling within the first 3-4 sec of running. The pic below was yesterday with the same tune for the log I posted Sunday. The log I posted was the return home log which included a hot start. This is also after the idle learning exercise.

In the pic, the cursor is parked at the lowest point where it almost stalled. KAMRF was working but no corrections were made until the timed activities concluded, ~40 sec. This pic only shows the OL activity from the log. If you would like to see THAT log, I'll post it.

InitialStart.jpg (79.94 KiB) Viewed 85231 times

I have made the adjustments suggested, from your last post, and will post the results as requested. Likely, late in the day as I have an appointment in town, mid afternoon.

Oh what fun....

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Its flaring/stalling because the EEC is fighting itself to achieve the target RPMs. The simplified math is: TB airflow + ISC airflow=Total idle airflow.

Here is what I suggest:
Go to FN826a,ISC startup RPM, change the 76*F cell to 250 rpms.
Now, keep lowering the TB airflow scalar .05 at a time. (or try .6) Fire it up to see how it responds. You only have to run it maybe 15 seconds. RInse and repeat till you find the value that reduces or eliminates flare/stalling.

** You could log these short startups, and watch ISC duty cycle. It should decline steady, not jump around like in the last log LOL. It starts at 60%, than drops to 52.6% at the 3.591 second mark, and back up to 57% after it. We want to eliminate that dip in ISC DC by reducing TB airlfow.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

First I have to admit to making a mistake, referring to the flare up in the pic above. I suppose I caused that condition by adding too much air. I apparently added the 3% to MAF twice. I spent some time going back through the posts and my tuning activity and that's what I found. I corrected my mistake and applied the most recent instructions to the tune.

I loaded the tune, started the engine and let it idle for 10 min to warm up. Then restarted and allowed 4 min for it to learn idle. Then restarted and allowed it to exit OL and off to the Doc's (Cardiologist) office.

This log is THAT trip.

JSCt14_LSLO_BP6 2024_Jul_02_15-00-15.7z

(1.23 MiB) Downloaded 1023 times

So, when I left the Doc's office my laptop had gotten so hot that it shut off. I drove back close to my house, giving it some time to cool off and restarted it. I went down my favorite test road and collected some more data.

Here's that log.

TestRoad.7z

(1.03 MiB) Downloaded 1264 times

Upon returning home, I shut the engine off and started it back up and let it hot idle for 3 min.

Here's that log.

3min_HotIdle.7z

(172.36 KiB) Downloaded 1109 times

I've had a lot on my plate recently so I know I'm missing some things. I haven't taken time to examine and absorb the data yet, myself. In general, the butt dyno feels pretty good. I think these logs bring us up to date with exception of your most recent post regarding changes in the air dept. I have NOT implemented any of those changes as of this posting. Look over this info and perhaps those instructions will change.

Thank you again for putting up with me,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

No worries, you have to take care of yourself first! (2 stents here) You will make mistake here or there, chit happens. lol

This last set of logs is a small step in the wrong direction. Not too bad, but the June30th log is better in the idle area.

Can you go back to the tune from the June 30th log?

Add another .2 to the high slope.
Change TB airflow to .65
FN826a,ISC startup RPM, change the 76*F cell to 250 rpms.

MAF - if can't go back to June30th, add 3% back to the first 6 cells. If you have the june30th, no maf change.

Clear KAMs before logging.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Trying to get back on point today and it seems to have taken all day to do it!

I went back to the tune reflected in the June 30 log and made the most recent changes you asked for. Below is a log from the test road and the other log is a 4 min idle after returning home. The idle log was after a restart so everything was in hot mode.

JSCt14_LSLO_BP7 2024_Jul_04_16-20-36.7z

(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 1175 times

4_Min_Idle.7z

(215.99 KiB) Downloaded 1236 times

Nothing stands out to me but I think it's just me, at this time. I'll have more time to evaluate what I feel tomorrow. My mind is elsewhere. In general, I guess, the fact nothing strikes me the wrong way is in part a good thing. Oh, I suppose it may be a little rich in idle. I'll let you be the judge. I just wanted to get this to you, so you can share in the fun, lol.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Yup, that looks good.

2 small changes:
TB airflow, set .55
Injector offset vs batt volts. Set last two cells to .95 (14v and 15.9v) Or whatever lowest value you can reduce it by.
Clear KAMs.

The injector offset change will lean idle.
You don't need to do idle log anymore. Its done learning idle by the end of your test drive.

Let me know if you have any other concerns.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

This log was a return trip from town. I thought you would like to see the results.

JSCt14_LSLO_BP8 2024_Jul_05_09-09-36.7z

(1.81 MiB) Downloaded 996 times

Normal driving seems very good. However, when the cruise control is engaged it isn't as consistent as it was, very noticeable on and off. There is data for ~60. Also, at every instance where I'm off the pedal, coast or idle, IPSIBR is maxed negative trying to pull some air out. Please take a look.

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I like that log. Looks good. I don't think I can do any better with the fueling. TB airflow is now a little low, but leave it alone for now. Done with Injector offset, what you got now is a keeper!

Clear KAMs.
Now, these are the 2 changes this round. These are Decipha's recommended settings.From efidynotuning/ idle air write up.(XXXX is the default 4080 RPMs)

FN875N
RPM AM
XXXX 2.00
1200 2.00
800 0.80
0 0.00
0 0.00
0 0.00

FN875D
RPM AM
XXXX 4.00
1200 4.00
800 1.00
0 0.00
0 0.00
0 0.00

If for some reason you have startup/idle issue, no need to even drive/log. But I do believe this is the reason IPSIBR is going nutz. lol The log will tell. I think you will be impressed. :)

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Thank you for your help and patience. Your advice and guidance has been most helpful. I've learned a lot through this exercise and will try to put some of this new knowledge to work.

You reminded me of Decipha's work and now have me reading it again.... I seem to forget so easily these days, or easily distracted. Maybe a touch of both.. ;>)

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Glad you like it. But you have to atleast tell me how it responded to those changes. Cant leave me hangin'! lol

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Honestly, I haven't made those changes yet. I'm STILL reading through the write up, again, to understand why I have them set the way they are in the tune. The analytical part of my head wants to know!

If memory serves me correctly, between this write up and Leech videos are where the changes came from. After going through the Idle Reset routine, the numbers in my tune were the calculated values that needed to be applied. I believe the FN875N, shown in the write up is actually for a combo closer to stock application, perhaps without HCI mods, or another strat. Also, FN875D, since I have a stick and from what I have been led to believe through those sources, doesn't really need to be addressed but if doing so, the same numbers from FN875N should be applied. There are other areas in the tune where similar changes need to be made, specifically when changing the NUBASE.

I am, and it's just mine, of the opinion that Decipha was using those numbers in the two functions as examples and stated they were "arbitrary" to perhaps to get a "nubee" started. As I read further down, some math is introduced which could change those values. But so far, the only place it's been suggested to adjust these values was in a video and I can't remember who produced it. Perhaps, if I continue reading, I'll find further details regarding these functions.

Consequently, I'm trying to chase down the WHY I changed them to begin with. I'm sitting here now, looking at the comparison of the FN875N in the existing tune and the stock A9L and, honestly, I can see why you might want to change that whole function a bit. If raising the NUBASE by 176 rpm there has to be more air flow. In the stock A9L tune, idle is set at 672 rpm. So, with trying to get my combo to idle a 848, there has to be some difference in air flow.

The other side of this is, set the FN875N (D) to the values in the write up and tune from there which, I feel, would upset some of the work we have already done. I could be wrong and would happily accept being corrected.

This whole conversation brings forth the thought that perhaps the whole Idle Reset routine should be performed again now that we have pretty much narrowed down the fueling issues. But since this tune is working very well, I'm really hesitant to open that can of worms AGAIN!

I'll be back! Speaking of being back, I had trouble logging in to the site today and had to reset my PC date back to yesterday. I posted elsewhere about this also.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I fully understand where you arecoming from! Knowing why a change does what it does.
When you asked me to check out your changes, the Fn875 changes stood out. We tell it how much air is needed at idle with TB airow and FN875N basically. Your engine needs about 1.3 kg/hr of air at idle per the logs. Thats the reason I felt you raised them too far. (TB and 875N) With a TB airflow setting of .55, FN875N should be .75 at 850 rpms. I wanted you to know where I was coming from.

Idle reset is not a bad idea now the fueling is set.

And remember, you can always undo those changes if they are not to your liking. I have hopes that this would also help with cruise control.
Good luck! Looking forward to what you come up with.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

I told you I would be back and sorry for the delay. I've been without power and water for a few days so my time as been directed in other directions. Ever hear of "Beryl"? Raining now so I'm staying in with this exception.

I made the changes to FN875N/D as you suggested and didn't touch anything else. However, my strat will not allow any change to the Y above 1.99 but you can/will see the results. I installed/started it and let it idle up to 188 deg, which put it in my normal operating range. Never touched the pedal. As you stated, regardless the limitations, I am impressed! The log below will reflect only changes in the Y as I left the desired idle at 848. Even so, this really surprised me! IPSIBR is still making some corrections but not as drastic, or prolonged, as before.

I'm NOW split as to whether or not I want to go through the "Idle Reset" routine again or not. This is good enough that I think I can live with it. Weather conditions may change my mind and dictate some further adjustments are required, at least for cold start. This log reflects a start temp fairly close to our "normal" for southeastern Texas and only 10 deg above a defined "Cold" start.

You will also note our friendly/normal short change in DSDRPM at 172 deg. Also, DSDRPM climbs again at in the 184 deg range. I presume this is ECT/ECU self defense. A rise in ISCDTY is noted also with very little LOADX movement.

JSCt14_LSLO_BP9 2024_Jul_12_10-24-56.7z

(958.29 KiB) Downloaded 1003 times

When the weather improves I'll gather a drive log for us... I'm as curious as I'm sure you are.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Glad you are getting to a point you are happy with! For the startup tuning, you will probably need to go back on some of the changes you made to FN1306 now that idle fuel and idle air are dialed in.

That is the best idle log to date. I do not feel the need for an idle reset. Definitely save a copy of this tune!!
I'm not expecting any surprises on the drive. The log will show. Let me know if it helped with the cruise control issue.

Next, I would go after that initial flare to 1700 rpms on startup.
One Change, for that startup flare:
FN884, lower ISC crank duty cycle to 80% across the board. (You could also zero out BUZZ rpm and timer if you are using it)
Those will only affect starting, and have zero influence on driveablity.

You have reached a point where I like to run the tune without any changes for some time. I would run it for a full tank at minimum. No logging, just use the car, and get a read on MPGs.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

It's been a minute but I haven't been idle. As you understand, initial starts really only happen once a day. I'm sending the logs below for you to review and offer any insight to their value. These are all based off the T14 tune and the last contacts we exchanged. I have NOT performed the Idle Reset routine yet but in one of these logs I believe I see reason to do so.. now.

BTW, I also welcome anyone else to comment about these items if so inclined.

The initial startup log I'm liking and, unless you have anything to add, don't really plan to make any more adjustments unless something screwy happens.

Initialstart.7z

(343.94 KiB) Downloaded 1061 times

The road trip log includes a warm startup and a WOT pull. I would especially like for you to review the WOT pull and examine the MAF activity. I'm considering doing some mapping in an attempt to correct the irregularities I'm seeing. The lines, in the graph, representing MPH and N (RPM) are fairly straight but I do think there is room for improvement. The issues, with the MAF, I believe are causing LAMBSE and AFR not to agree, but I could be wrong as I have been many times.

RoadHome.7z

(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 893 times

Arriving at home, I turned it off and immediately restarted for the warm idle review. This is where I'm gathering the information that leads me to believe I SHOULD do the idle reset. Just before in exits OL, ISCDTY bottoms out. It's idling lower than DSDRPM and I don't think I understand why. So, I turn to you......

4_MinHot.7z

(236.89 KiB) Downloaded 1096 times

So you know, I have solely been working on the initial startup stuff. The only fueling changes I have made were in the areas that effect the timed events and the time prior to leaving OL. Perhaps I've stepped to far in the latter portion of OL. Here's the bin.

NewTune_2.7z

(22.65 KiB) Downloaded 1098 times

Thanks for your time,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I like what I see.

Above 2.5 mafv, it was a tad on the 'fat' side. I fixed that, should bring LAMBSE closer to WB in that area, and smoothed the maf curve. I also added a couple of degrees of timing in FN131, in the mid range.

There maybe more power there, but you would need a dyno session to safely find it.
Clear KAMs, for the maf change.

NewTune_2WOTMAF.7z

(22.69 KiB) Downloaded 1062 times

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,
As you may have noticed, I haven't been very active lately but I'm not dead! I have been otherwise occupied but have found a minute here and there to play with the car.

To start, back a few months ago while fighting with the AC and the overheating problem, I changed the thermostat to a 180 deg so my normal operating temp is in the mid to upper 170 range. I don't think it makes a big difference but just wanted you to know.

Below is the current tune, a cruise log, and a warm startup for 3 minutes. Take a look, scrutinize, and let me know what you think. Suggestions are, as always, welcome. It cruises well but I'm still not sold on the startup. I may be too pickie!

42.7z

(22.65 KiB) Downloaded 826 times

42_cruise.7z

(1.84 MiB) Downloaded 754 times

42_warmstart.7z

(168.99 KiB) Downloaded 881 times

[JuiceSC]

Initial quick review. Just taking notes as I review, please ignore grammar&typo's. lol

Warm start: Idle target really close (976 target, ~1000 actual). KAMRF learned is very good at 1.02 or less, and remain steady through out the hot start log.
I see only ONE item somewhat out of place, and that is ISCDC. Mid to high 30's is good, but I like to be a little lower. This is really just my preference. If I were to make a change, it would be to the throttle stop screw.

So, tell me what you are looking to fix with the startup. That log looks great to me!

Cruise: You seemed to have let it idle for a bit before taking off.
First thing I noticed, LOAD and LOAD% are much lower than what I recall from prior logs. AFR and KAMRF look fine.

I gotta head out, I'll take a look at the tune file and see if I can find what happened to load.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

I probably let it exit OL before taking off and compare that startup to the warm idle also.

It seems like my combo typically runs in the mid 30's in LOADX. It is likely due to the cam. I sometimes note LOADX in the very high 20's, like 28 or 29, but that doesn't happen very often. That may happen when I'm slightly coasting so I generally ignore it. Typically, I see 32-36 LOADX on a fairly consistent basis, even at a moderate cruise. Perhaps you will see that also.

The butt-o-meter is simply not satisfied with the idle. Looking at the datalog graph, it does seem to be fairly good. However, I think I've got it a little on the lean side causing it to idle faster than DSRPM on occasion. That's why I asked for your opinion.

As for ISCDC, I have been thinking about a 1/4 turn clockwise.

Thanks for your input,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I took a peek at '42' and I'm a little confused. One thing, I thought I did some tweaking to the injector offset vs batt, yet in 42 it is stock. Other injector stuff is as I recall.
Timing tables look a bit 'messy', and I would zero out O2 bias table. (this is something I just started doing) And since hot operation seems to be really good, I'd set startup enrichment stuff back to stock.

Like this:

42v2.7z

(22.65 KiB) Downloaded 948 times

Don't reset KAMRF, just load this up. Do it after the car sat overnight, so its completely cold. And give me your impression on how it starts, by the 'seat of the pants'. Don't do a compare on what I did until AFTER you did a cold start.
I did try to bring up load a little, it's too low IMO. Steady cruise should be in the 40"s holding highway speeds.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, I followed your instructions, loaded the bin, then started. Of course I logged it and have included it here. As you predicted, the initial start was pretty fair and butt-o-meter didn't alarm. I had cause to run to town so I logged the trip with several stops. I have included the return log which includes some cruising at different speeds, one WOT pull and a slow pull from 30 ish to 85 or so in 4th gear, which never went to OL. Arriving home, I logged a hot start for ~3 minutes. So here's the results of what you sent, untouched.

Well, I've tried several times to upload the files but the system seems to be malfunctioning, somehow. I'll try to edit this later to add the files.

Larry

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here's the files.

42v2_Initial.7z

(401.6 KiB) Downloaded 1315 times

42v2_Cruise.7z

(955.17 KiB) Downloaded 785 times

42v2_WarmStart.7z

(177.44 KiB) Downloaded 839 times

Awaiting your opinion but I do believe there's very little needed to complete this project.

I did notice the timing difference in the log while driving but not anything to really draw attention to. As for the injector offset vs battery, I remember something about changing the top two but it appears you reset them and, as far as I can tell, the change is doing its job. There is a small amount of change in LOADX but not more than a couple percent, or that's what I'm seeing.

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I agree, looks good!
The two things that I'm not likin' are injector timing and load.

Minor changes, nothing drastic. You do not need to clear KAMRF.

42v3.zip

(24.13 KiB) Downloaded 1771 times

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Take a close look at this log, 42v3. This was number 6 log for the town trip and the final for the day, town to home.

42v3 2025_Feb_12_09-54-12.7z

(770.56 KiB) Downloaded 1202 times

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Looks good.
It's a keeper if you have no more concerns.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Thank you for your assistance over the past year. It's been fun and VERY educational. Here's a pic of the last log. I thought you might like to see it.

ScreenHunter_01 Feb. 18 08.00.jpg (103.94 KiB) Viewed 76853 times

Thanks again,

Larry