[JuiceSC]

JuiceSC,

It dawned on me that perhaps I should ask YOU what information from the logs you need to see. I just took a shot at some numbers that I thought would be of value. I can do screen shots of various areas of interest if it will help.

Let me know,

Larry

At this early stage, I just need lambse, KAMRF. at light load, in closed loop, engine temp greater than 150F. Just trying to find the working slopes for your injectors. Once we find the injector slopes, that's when the fun begins! lol

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Now that I know what you prefer, I'll make a better effort to get the appropriate data to pass along. Below, I included 1 pic from the first test to provide some comparison. The other 2 are from today. One is similar to the first test plus a WOT pic. If the WOT is not necessary I won't bother any further. The tune names are at the top of the charts. I parked the courser in areas that I thought would provide some good numbers on the left. If memory serves me right, they indicate the lowest LOADX. In the WOT pic, the courser indicates the highest LOADX.

I will say that today's test was much improved overall. The hunting at startup was hardly noticeable.

Larry

Tune1_1.jpg (71.13 KiB) Viewed 106401 times

Tune2_1.jpg (74.19 KiB) Viewed 106401 times

Tune2_2.jpg (76.32 KiB) Viewed 106401 times

[JuiceSC]

Injector_test3.zip

(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 1045 times

Still rich, but getting closer. I bumped injector slopes another step. Slopes are set to 30 on this one.
Those injectors you have seem to calibrate as 30's at 40psi, not 50psi. Interesting. Not an issue, just observation.

With the engine armed up, log a light acceleration, in closed loop on a flat road. Something like 1500 to 3500 rpms .

Ps: See in your WOT pull log, eec commanding .84, but WB reporting .71. We want these two to match.
.84 equals 12.3 afr, as set in the fuel table top right corner.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Got it and perhaps this afternoon we'll give it try. I can likely get the light acceleration in 4th without any problem.

Ps: See in your WOT pull log, eec commanding .84, but WB reporting .71. We want these two to match.
.84 equals 12.3 afr, as set in the fuel table top right corner.

I saw that and realize the table is set that way. I'll point out here that I haven't made ANY adjustments to your tunes. They are just as you sent them. I have experimented with that table, changed to 1.00, and posted a photo, earlier in this thread. You may want to review it. Not sure but I think I included the slope information also. Aftwards, I readjusted the table to .852 across the top and that worked out well.

EDIT: Since we're talking about it, here is the last WOT after making the adjustments above. Slopes here are both set at 32.8169 for reference. I parked the courser at peak LOADX. Just to the right of that, where AFR flatlines, the AFR and LAMBSE match. Food for thought.

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

JuiceSC,

Got it and perhaps this afternoon we'll give it try. I can likely get the light acceleration in 4th without any problem.

Ps: See in your WOT pull log, eec commanding .84, but WB reporting .71. We want these two to match.
.84 equals 12.3 afr, as set in the fuel table top right corner.

I saw that and realize the table is set that way. I'll point out here that I haven't made ANY adjustments to your tunes. They are just as you sent them. I have experimented with that table, changed to 1.00, and posted a photo, earlier in this thread. You may want to review it. Not sure but I think I included the slope information also. Aftwards, I readjusted the table to .852 across the top and that worked out well.

EDIT: Since we're talking about it, here is the last WOT after making the adjustments above. Slopes here are both set at 32.8169 for reference. I parked the courser at peak LOADX. Just to the right of that, where AFR flatlines, the AFR and LAMBSE match. Food for thought.

Thanks,

Larry

Commanding .85, and measuring .84 on the WB, I would call high slope and maf transfer over 2.5volts, Done! I would not go any leaner up top. Probably runs pretty damn good now. :) WOT pull logs are no longer needed. Definitely save that last tune from that WOT run, that's a good base to work from here on.

Next you will need to log a nice highway cruise, maintaining speed. It is time to work on low throttle, closed loop fueling.
A couple of data points, 40mph, 50mph, 60mph. Looking for MAF volts, Lambse & KAMRF. Holding each speed about 15 seconds should be good. KAMRF should start to move now.

Alternately, you can see what EA recommends, since now the tune is "in the ballpark". I am a bit curious what kind of low slope and/or breakpoint its going to end up with. Isn't it fun working with mystery injectors? lol

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here are some pics to examine. These represent the 2nd effort. I wasn't happy with the first attempt.

I hope you can make more of the EA slope information than I can. I've tried this before and received similar results.

EA_Slopes.jpg (87.5 KiB) Viewed 106367 times

[JuiceSC]

Injector_test4.zip

(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 1083 times

Based on the logs, Injector test3 was still almost 10% off. (KAMRF 0.91)

Same log please, cruise in closed loop. 40,50,60 mph.

As far as EA goes, I can't help there. Never used it.

[MrsJones]

I was just looking at cold start responses, comparing T2 to T3, and T2 seems to have provided the smoothest startup. ALL the logged parameters have the smoothest lines thus far. Don't know if that helps or not but can't help but believe it will.

Here's what it looks like. T1 was a bust and T3 is not near as smooth as this. The courser is parked just after entering CL.

Thanks again,

Larry

T2Startup.jpg (82.97 KiB) Viewed 106349 times

[JuiceSC]

I was just looking at cold start responses, comparing T2 to T3, and T2 seems to have provided the smoothest startup. ALL the logged parameters have the smoothest lines thus far. Don't know if that helps or not but can't help but believe it will.

Here's what it looks like. T1 was a bust and T3 is not near as smooth as this. The courser is parked just after entering CL.

Thanks again,

Larry

T2Startup.jpg

Since t2 was smoothest start, it tells me that start fueling will need to be richened up. We will come back to this after KAMRF's are hovering close to "1" with +/- a few points. Lets see where tune 4 is at first.
It is going to be a bit more tedious to get idle fueling dialed in, but you won't need to go out and drive the car!

If you want to get an idle log, you can. Hot startup, and about 4-5 min. Log maf Volts, lambse, KAMRF. I think it's a bit soon, but won't hurt.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Here is a pic from a recent datalog where I have the slopes set at 32.8169, very near the settings in Tune4. I will still load T4 and go collect the data requested but I thought you might find this interesting before I do so.

I was driving on the cruise control during this time but found an area where most of the data lines are relatively flat. Where the cursor is parked, KAMRF, ISC, TP, LOADX are all flat. Check the numbers here...

Larry

KAM9_6.jpg (71.85 KiB) Viewed 106340 times

[JuiceSC]

JuiceSC,

Here is a pic from a recent datalog where I have the slopes set at 32.8169, very near the settings in Tune4. I will still load T4 and go collect the data requested but I thought you might find this interesting before I do so.

I was driving on the cruise control during this time but found an area where most of the data lines are relatively flat. Where the cursor is parked, KAMRF, ISC, TP, LOADX are all flat. Check the numbers here...

Larry

KAM9_6.jpg

Getting closer. Lambse of 1.04 and KAMRF of .96, In an ideal world, both would be 1. But we don't live in an ideal world. LOL But we can get it closer still.

Injector_test5.zip

(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 931 times

Some more minor tweaks based on your feedback. And a few things I saw I did not like.

[MrsJones]

Here is the first 5 minutes of a hot start for T4 and T5.

T4first5.jpg (64.77 KiB) Viewed 106308 times

T5first5.jpg (92.15 KiB) Viewed 106308 times

[MrsJones]

These represent the 40, 50, and 60 mph logs. Note here, all these test points were done in 4th gear. The wind in our area wasn't kind to me today. So here's my best shot. It's odd how KAMRF varies so much in these pics. I have left KAMRF highlighted.

T4_405060.jpg (74.44 KiB) Viewed 106307 times

T5_405060.jpg (72.21 KiB) Viewed 106307 times

[JuiceSC]

I like that log. Time to work on idle.
Clear KAM for the next log.
Log idle, fully warmed up. Wait about 2 minutes idling before you start the log so all the timers/adders have run out.

At the start of the log, KAMRF should be at 1 (cleared), and start adjusting. Lets see where its at. You are basically logging an "idle relearn" after battery replacement".

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here is the idle log pic. You'll notice that I cleared KAMRF right after starting the log. This represents ~3 minutes of hot idle. I appears that KAMRF maxed out fairly quickly.

3minStart_T5.jpg (84.78 KiB) Viewed 106209 times

Here is something else I thought you may find interesting. This represents two 50 and 60 mph cruise logs, done back to back, in both 4th and 5th gears. All previous tests of this nature were done only in 4th. Seems 5th gear offers a slightly different view. I left KAMRF highlighted. 4th gear is to the left half of the pic. While driving, and watching, KAMRF seemed to correct in the 1.00xx range but in 5th gear it corrected even more so in the 1.0xxx range. In 5th, I saw 1.04 to 1.07 most frequently. Seems the RPM range has an effect. Food for thought.

5060_4th_5th.jpg (69.9 KiB) Viewed 106209 times

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Your are spot on. KAMRF maxxed out, I was pretty sure it would. This also has an impact on startup.

Injector_test6.zip

(24.38 KiB) Downloaded 904 times

Clear KAMs, and same log of idle only please.
This is where the real fun begins! Getting to this point was easy. lol
Question: how did you set the idle stop screw on the throttle body?


As for the 4th vs 5th observation, that is from different loading of the engine. It is well within the eec's range of correction, but I did make a small change for it. I split the difference with maf adjustment. For now, lets focus on dialing in idle.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, thanks again.

The 4th to 5th gear difference, it appears LOADX climbs ~7-8% with the gear change. Likely to be the main contributor.

I set the idle screw with IAC and TPS unplugged, at a warm idle. Simply backed it off until the engine would barely run, logged the MAF and crunched the numbers to come up with NUBASE, neutral idle air and the rest of the group. If you look in my tune you can see what I did and where the tuning was done, compared to stock A9L.bin. I probably over simplified the procedure but I think you know the routine. You would also find a group of fuel adjustments, for idle purposes, have been modified. Honestly, I think I made too many adjustments in order to hide the root problem, as Kamala calls it. However, all in all, it COLD starts pretty well with those adjustments. I'm not as happy with WARM starts, I just think it can be better. Also, I found it idles best ~850rpm, 848 is as close as BE will allow.

On to the new tune. I'll get this done just after lunch.

Larry

[JuiceSC]

What's it doing on a warm start?

I asked about the throttle body screw because I saw TP volts at .97v at idle. That's fine for now, but I prefer this a little lower. Watch TP volts at closed throttle from a dead cold start vs fully warmed up. Mine creeps up about .2v. When I had my tps set to .95v w/ engine cold, it was causing the eec to not register closed throttle after about 10 min of driving, giving me a nice 1400 rpm idle.

Will probably need to tweak the idle stop screw once fuel & air is dialed in.

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here's the idle log for Tune6. I left KAMRF highlighted.

5minStart_T6.jpg (88.81 KiB) Viewed 106146 times

The top line in the pic is ISCDTY and appears to be making a fairly big correction to maintain DSDRPM. I haven't seen this before.
N, or RPM is at the bottom of the pic.

You may want to revisit the Neutral Idle Air vs Drive Idle Air. From all I have read, I have been led to believe those should be identical since I have a 5 speed. It may not make any difference but I was just reviewing the changes and noticed it. It's your call.

The TPS, I watch this quite regularly and so far it hasn't varied any more than .005 volts. When I see it, it's always at 0.9750 or 0.980 and appears to be pretty stable.

As for the warm start, I can be wrong and am quite often, but I thought that it should rev up a bit more to clear the intake etc. Usually it starts quite near the commanded idle RPM and a little rough for a few seconds. This applies to your tunes AND mine. Perhaps some adjustment in the ISC Adder vs ECT or the "buzz" adder. It's not a huge issue and can be addressed later or may come out in the wash.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Injector_test7.zip

(24.38 KiB) Downloaded 963 times

Same deal, clear KAMs, let her idle hot.

Don't worry about ISCDTY for now. Agreed, it is a tad high, but not bad. Will get it to the 20-35% range, ideally about 30%.

As far as drive idle airflow, I like it set a little higher than neutral air, gives a slight rpm bump coasting to a stop. If you prefer to match drive/neutral air, we can do that.

TP volts are fine as long as you don't get any intermittent high idle. If we need to open the throttle stop it may need to be dealt with.

Lets see if warm start improves as we dial in the fuel at idle. I will have a better idea how to fix that (if it does not improve) once idle is dialed in.
I don't think the buzz settings work, lol. Played around with them on mine, and they did NOTHING.

Do you know how much vacuum your engine idles at? Just curious.

[MrsJones]

Alrighty....

I can't say if I have preference regarding the idle air flow, just pointing it out. I would like to shoot for a 848 rpm idle however.

The engine produces about 16 inches vac at idle.

If we need to work the TPS, I know how to handle that. I had to replace the sensor a while back and with the idle air flow adjusting routine, that reading is simply where it ended up at. So far, I've seen no issues with it.

Previously, I've logged the ISCDTY in the low to mid 30's when exiting startup OL, warm engine.

Thanks,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

I did make changes that affect isc duty cycle. No worries, we can get it to 30%. Fuel first, than air, than you can taylor to you liking if needed.

Ps: I'm trying to do the opposite on mine! I'm idling at 20%, which is too low IMO. Trying to eliminate a slight idle surge, but I just manage to keep moving it around. lol I had a "light bulb" moment as I type this, helping you is also helping me!

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, here's a 5 min warm idle for T7. I left KAMRF highlighted which started at 1.000.

5minidle_T7.jpg (82.86 KiB) Viewed 106116 times

.... and, for your entertainment, two startup pics ending just after exiting OL. One for cold start and one for warm start.

T7_coldstart.jpg (68.32 KiB) Viewed 106116 times

T7_warmstart.jpg (71.23 KiB) Viewed 106116 times

[JuiceSC]

I like the idle log. KAMRF near 1. From here, very small adjustments are needed, if any, looks pretty dang good, but I would like to see idle closer to your preferred 848.

Injector_test8.zip

(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 1131 times

Just a few small changes, drive/neutral airflow (now set same) and throttle body airflow. Lets see how KAMRF, and ISC duty cycle changes with this. But fueling overall, is now well within the eec's range of control. One more hot idle log with KAMs cleared. Don't be surprised if this version is not better than 7.
Can you add spark advance to the idle log? I use it as an indicator of how 'happy' the eec is idling.

As for the startup, when I got to this point on mine, I always let it sit overnight to evaluate a cold start.
Let me know how it starts now, cold and warm/hot. Looking at start up logs is not quite the same as sitting in the car. lol

Can you pull away from a stop, like creeping in stop/go traffic without giving it any throttle? If the tune is close, you should be able to do that. (Ex: I back out of the garage without giving it any throttle. I could not do that before I fixed my idle )

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC, got T8 and will work it tomorrow and report.

Yes, I can log the spark but don't make a practice of it. It seems to cover up so much other data I usually leave it out of the charts. I have avoided ANYTHING that has to do with timing and let Ford do the work. Perhaps I can rescale it in the chart to offset it to the top or bottom. I'll see what I can do to include it in the hot idle.

The cold start pic above was the first start of the day. I then logged the hot idle for you and then performed the warm start. So all the information presented above was done basically at the same time, or one sitting. I'll provide another cold start tomorrow and you're right, it's not like sitting in the seat. The "buttometer" can tell you a lot about how happy the engine is.

As it stands, I can idle off going forward fairly easily but, due to the gear differences, backing up requires some pedal work. Between the cam and the nature of my clutch, slipping it is like an art form. Also, for now, I can drive at idle in first without the lugging/jerking motion but can't say the same in any other gear, especially just off idle. I wasn't going to bring that up just yet but this seemed like a good time to mention it as something else to work on or try to minimize the effects. When I first started tuning this thing, it was extremely bad but has lessened through tuning efforts. Hopefully that trend will continue.

Until tomorrow,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Fine tuning from here is really just how picky you are about driveablity. Just need to put some miles on it, and note what you think needs attention. And go from there.
Feel free to try making adjustments, experiment. You can always go back to #7 or #8.

Have you considered enabling DFSO, decel fuel shutoff? It works well, I enabled it on mine. No more popcorn on decel. lol
I'm also trying MFA, but I don't think that is working. Not seeing the leanout on the WB. So I'm not recommending MFA

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

Here is the T8 warm idle you requested. I cleared KAMRF just after starting the log, as you will note to the left of the chart. I rescaled the chart properties for the SPARK so it would not be in the way. I left SPARK highlighted in all the pics below. Actually, while watching the spark as being logged, the variance ranged between 17-21 deg during all the logs. Overall, I think it looks pretty fair. During the warm idle, as ECT climbed, DSDRPM started climbing and ISCDTY followed suit. I would think that's normal.

T8_warmidle.jpg (86.05 KiB) Viewed 106051 times

Below is a cold start and a warm start. Cold start consumes most of this pic while in OL. Warm start leaves OL sooner.

I compared the charts for cold start between T7 and T8. T8 indicates a leaner LAMBSE by ~.03 which is likely where you intended for it to go. Otherwise, all the other indicators were pretty much the same with only the differences from the air flow adjustment. The "buttometer" didn't get overly excited from the changes.

T8_coldstart.jpg (77.89 KiB) Viewed 106051 times

T8_warmstart.jpg (87.98 KiB) Viewed 106051 times

I have NOT done anything with DSFO or MFA. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tamper with unknowns. As I read about others dealing with aspects of their tune, occasionally I find something that might/could improve my tune. Even then I'm likely gonna' ask questions. That's how this thread got started!

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Other than bringing ISC duty cycle a bit lower, I like what I see in the logs. Ignition timing is fine, you can remove it from the logs. I'm good with overall fuel and injector settings, I would save that tune as a good base to work with. Any change you try at this stage will be obvious pretty quick for the better or worse. At this point, I like to put a few 'drive cycles' on the tune and see if anything funky pops up over time.
**I'm not sure why desired rpm is lower than idle rpm in one of those logs and higher in the other. (I cannot log DSDRPM, so have no reference) IMO, it's not an issue.

I would like to know how the car responds under the following scenario: Highway cruise, holding speed in 5th gear cruise. (fully warmed up ofcourse) Go WOT for a few seconds, something like 2000 to 2300 rpm "pull", passing without downshifting. If the tune is good, car will start accelerating smoothly, no hesitation or anything. Might as well check WB reading at this WOT moment, for a quick cal verification. Also, you may want to log both lambse 1&2, KAMRF 1&2. Just to make sure they are withing a few points of each other. (On mine, I see about a 3% difference at idle, gets less and less as RPMs increase)

The only change on this version is throttle body airflow. I increasing it, lets see how it responds.

Injector_test9.zip

(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 1065 times

I found that throttle body airflow has the following affects:
Lower it, RPM's tend to flare higher on startup. Lowering this can cover up a multitude of sins.
Raise it: results in lower startup flare, and potentially can really hose up your idle.
I'm over-sipmlifying here: Throttle body airlow + ISC airflow ROUGHLY equal idle airflow in the neutral idle airflow function. For me, a .02 lb/min change is noticeable. Feel free to try to mess with the TB airflow, see if you can find a value your setup likes. And if you do find a TB setting that works better, let me know!

Any questions, hit me!

Note:I got my ISC duty cycle down into the high 30% range, and that is where it is staying. Much lower %, the ISC airflow change is getting small. Not what I need when trying to tame a surging idle. lol But that's a whole other story....

[MrsJones]

JuiceSC,

I log a lot of stuff including both KAMRF1, KAMFR2, and LAMBSE1, LAMBSE2. So, I just went back to today's log and turned them on. I tried to reproduce the range so the two pics would look similar. I think you'll like what you see.

T8_bothKAM.jpg (81.77 KiB) Viewed 106020 times

I'll try T9 tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JuiceSC]

Yup, looks good.

One thing I would like to adjust a little is load. 32% at idle is a tad high, and load @ 60mph, or "highway cruise" speed is actually lower. If you look at the base fuel table, in the 180*F ECT column, the 'sweet spot', or best fuel economy is at ~40%. While the base fuel table is not used in closed loop, I think Ford wanted to cruise near this load. And spark tables also support this.
Your warmed up idle seems solid, so a tic high load there is not a big deal. WOT load of 117% is perfectly fine. If you were getting close to 200%, than it would be a concern. (wasn't this the title of this thread? lol)

I would like to address cruise load first. Need to know timing advance and load, 5th gear, flat road, holding your preferred cruise speed, no more than 70 mph. (what's the highway speed limit around your parts?) That info will tell me the best way to make any adjustments. I said 'your preferred speed', as we are dialing in your car!
Getting this dialed in will get you the best fuel economy on the highway.

Ps: Looked up your cam specs, the load numbers make sense actually.