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ClintD
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E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Sat Jan 11, 2025 3:48 pm

OK' I've been out of this for a while but I'm trying to help my kid out on a project. We' got a 1988 cougar with a fresh 331 stroker consisting of GT40 intake, GT40p heads with comp cams valve springs, summit E303+ cam, 24# injectors, stock 93 mustang MAF, BBK longtubes, A9p ECM with a slightly modified X3Z tune (to match MAF and delete AIR, PURGE and EGR). Anyway the problem I'm having is with the base timing set at 10 degrees, I literally have straight fuel coming out the tailpipes to where I can light it off with a lighter and this is with "Special timing at idle" enabled and set to 420degrees. What am I doing wrong? I had this before with a E303 cam but I don't remember what I did to fix it, any help appreciated. Here's the thing, if I set the timing by ear I end up at almost 20 degrees base and it seems to be ok, but with the SPOT back in I have like 46 degrees at 3500 RPM so obviously something isn't right. Cam is installed straight up.
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by David Claflin » Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:12 pm

1990 LX/A9L/347, 205TW heads, mild cam, TFS-R box, 1 3/4 longtubes, 3"exhaust, T5, 4.56
1985 LTD LX, A9L, ported Performer RPM, ported Holley SMII,1 3/4 longtubes, 4.10, T5trans, mach 1 brakes.
1986 coupe, VM1, former FHP car, stock shortblock, ported TW heads, VIC Jr EFI. 4-holeTB, 1 3/4 longtubes, 3" exhaust, T5Z, 4.88

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Sun Jan 12, 2025 8:10 am

Well, this will most definitely help but I don't remember how to get some of the measurements. like 'm trying to enter in overlap and from what I remember you are supposed to add the duration for intake and exhaust, then divide by 2 twice and that's where I start screwing up because in the end I get 1 and I know that's wrong!
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74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by JuiceSC » Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:25 am

Injector timing won't cause what you are describing. Have you checked your spark plugs, and do they all look the same? (good or bad, but SAME)

Set base timing to 10*, please confirm your timing pointer is accurate.
Fuel system good? what's the actual fuel pressure?
What is the EEC strategy you are using?

I suggest you start with new stock bin and make the absolute minimal changes:

1, Maf transfer,
2 injector slopes/offsets,
3, EGR & Smog pump disabled,
4, set idle to 900 (for now),
5 Set engine displacement.
6, Set Exhaust pulse delay (FN1351)ALL to 18 for the long tube headers)

Change nothing else, The only thing we care about at this time is FULLY WARMED UP operation. Ignore any cold start issues or surging while warming up. Trying to fix those before fuel/maf is dialed in will just cause headaches and time for you.

Get it fully warmed up, 180-200* and log a hot startup and 5 min idle. Post the log with MAF volts, KAMRF, O2, rpms, LAMBSE, tp volts.
And post that tune file, I will take a look.

Is that 93 MAF you have a stock 55mm unit or a 70mm cobra MAF?
91 GT, A9P, systemax II, 75mm tb, AFP, 75mm Pro M, 42#, Vortech S trim, GT40 crate 5.0, BBK catted X, flows, Tremec 3550, Pro 5.0, 3.27 gears. Tweecer RT, TunerPro.

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Mon Jan 13, 2025 6:45 am

Timing pointer is verified, Ci is entered, 55mm stock MAF, brand new Bosch 24# injectors, brand new and verified FPR, brand new NGK plugs. What happens is according to an AFR gauge the car is running fairly lean at idle but still have raw fuel coming out the tailpipes. What had to be done on the last setup like this I did 15 years ago was set it to inject the fuel just as the intake valve was closing at idle. The reason being was because of the overlap, the fuel would just sneak out through the exhaust. Using a fresh X3Z calibration with all emissions disabled and the MAF transfer updated for the stock MAF (until I get a 65mm cobra unit). Anyway I found the calibration for my old Maverick and just copied over the injector timing table and now its much much better, but I would still like to know how to use the spreadsheet so I can make the it correct for this cam since it's slightly different than the Ford Racing version.
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by JuiceSC » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:13 am

Don't tune idle with the wide band, use the stock sensors for idle and low speed closed loop.
The zx3 eec should only need the maf updated as it already is setup for 24#. I'd try no changes to injector data as a test.

Ps:I played around with injector timing and never really saw any noticable change. Mine seems to like the a9l automatic settings vs the stick.
And Im fairly sure the cobra maf will also "peg" on your setup. You may want to get a maf calibrated for 30#
91 GT, A9P, systemax II, 75mm tb, AFP, 75mm Pro M, 42#, Vortech S trim, GT40 crate 5.0, BBK catted X, flows, Tremec 3550, Pro 5.0, 3.27 gears. Tweecer RT, TunerPro.

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:55 am

Playing around with injector timing on a stock or mild cam probably won't make much of a noticeable difference, but once you have some overlap and a very free flowing exhaust you'll end up with the problem I'm having. Also, I'm not tuning the idle with a Wideband, what I was saying is so much fuel passes through the exhaust that it can actually be lit on fire at idle, but according to the O2's and the Wideband it's at normal to lean levels and its just the fuel passing right through. I had this worked out before on a similar setup but that was about 15 years ago!
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

David Claflin
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by David Claflin » Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:59 pm

JuiceSC wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:25 am 6, Set Exhaust pulse delay (FN1351)ALL to 18 for the long tube headers)
18!??! I thought 12 was the go to number for long tubes....
1990 LX/A9L/347, 205TW heads, mild cam, TFS-R box, 1 3/4 longtubes, 3"exhaust, T5, 4.56
1985 LTD LX, A9L, ported Performer RPM, ported Holley SMII,1 3/4 longtubes, 4.10, T5trans, mach 1 brakes.
1986 coupe, VM1, former FHP car, stock shortblock, ported TW heads, VIC Jr EFI. 4-holeTB, 1 3/4 longtubes, 3" exhaust, T5Z, 4.88

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by Odrapnew » Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:04 am

As JuiceSC said, injector timing by itself will not cause raw fuel out the exhaust.
How long after running are you seeing the raw fuel out the tailpipes?

You only have 5.5 degrees overlap at .050”, so not a ton, but not 0.

Injector close timing of 420 is completing its injecting 57.5 degrees (if my math is right) after exhaust valve closes. Rough calculations shows that you’re injectors are opening after exhaust valve closes (assuming you have less than 10ms of injector pulse width), so you wouldn’t be dumping any raw fuel out the exhaust from the injectors.

You could try this, inject fuel earlier on a closed intake valve. That will (theoretically) allow the fuel to vaporize before entering the cylinder. That might help keep more fuel in the cylinder, but that’s more of a band aid to the actual issue.

I have a TFS stg. 1 cam that has 0 overlap at .050” (little smaller than your cam) and I inject fuel before intake valve opens. I didn’t notice any major difference with my idle when I changed injector timing. I had it anywhere from 280 to 500, no big difference at idle. Part throttle is a different story.
'89 Notch, 304(5.0), Novi2K@13psi (currently not installed) TFS heads, TFS Stage 1 cam, Cobra intake, 60lb'ers and Pro-M 80mm, longtubes_x-pipe_flowmasters and more crap that doesnt increase power. 437rwhp@5500(and still climbing)/438rwtq@~4000rpm Tweecer R/T w_BE and EA

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:57 pm

I set the injector timing to 420 in the cells before 900 RPM and now the problem is gone. I knew it was something like that but like I said, I dealt with this 15 years ago!
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

Odrapnew
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by Odrapnew » Wed Jan 15, 2025 7:31 pm

I'll admit, I'm a bit skeptical and something doesn't add up for me.

First post stated you had injector timing a 420 and it leaked fuel out the exhaust. Latest post says same injector timing doesn't cause fuel out exhaust.

Also, I still can't see, with your mild cam, how injector timing can cause liquid fuel to come out the exhaust.
'89 Notch, 304(5.0), Novi2K@13psi (currently not installed) TFS heads, TFS Stage 1 cam, Cobra intake, 60lb'ers and Pro-M 80mm, longtubes_x-pipe_flowmasters and more crap that doesnt increase power. 437rwhp@5500(and still climbing)/438rwtq@~4000rpm Tweecer R/T w_BE and EA

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:03 am

I had to set the table to 420 as for some reason the "Special injector timing at idle" parameter didn't work and I don't know why. Funny part is my final question was how to do the math to enter the numbers from the cam card so that I can actually enter everything correctly, but nothing on that yet.
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:06 pm

Even if you don't have a license for EEC Analyser, install it and go to the Cam timing calculator and read the helpfiles about how to use it. There's a LOT of peripheral info about cam timing beyond just using the calculator that I think will answer a lot of your questions.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:27 am

cgrey8 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 1:06 pm Even if you don't have a license for EEC Analyser, install it and go to the Cam timing calculator and read the helpfiles about how to use it. There's a LOT of peripheral info about cam timing beyond just using the calculator that I think will answer a lot of your questions.
I actually have it and I have the license for it, but I totally forgot about it! I'll definitely use it, Thank you.
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

JuiceSC
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by JuiceSC » Sun Jan 19, 2025 2:19 pm

Wasn't the ZX3 bin injector timing 'flat' across the board? Going from memory here lol. But the A9* eecs varied injector timing for load & RPM. So why would Ford do it different on essentially the same platform? Just curious.

I may try what EA suggests, start to spray at IVO and see what it does. Won't happen for a few months.... it's snowing here.
91 GT, A9P, systemax II, 75mm tb, AFP, 75mm Pro M, 42#, Vortech S trim, GT40 crate 5.0, BBK catted X, flows, Tremec 3550, Pro 5.0, 3.27 gears. Tweecer RT, TunerPro.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by Odrapnew » Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:01 am

Yeah, the X3Z (93 Cobra) was one value across the whole table. Something like 280 or 300.

I know for my car, low rpm, light throttle, the engine ran best when injector was done firing before intake valve opened.
For the longest time (like 15 years), I had it set to start firing after exhaust valve closed, but it would buck and misfire in 1000-2000rpm range.
Finally last year I found that completing injector firing before intake valve opened completely eliminated the issue.

Idle didn't seem to make a big difference, but part throttle was noticeable.
'89 Notch, 304(5.0), Novi2K@13psi (currently not installed) TFS heads, TFS Stage 1 cam, Cobra intake, 60lb'ers and Pro-M 80mm, longtubes_x-pipe_flowmasters and more crap that doesnt increase power. 437rwhp@5500(and still climbing)/438rwtq@~4000rpm Tweecer R/T w_BE and EA

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ClintD
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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by ClintD » Sat Jan 25, 2025 7:34 am

Update! Well, it turns out that my main problem was actually a problem in the ECM itself and although what I changed made it much better, it still wasn't perfect. Luckily I have 2 vehicles with a very close setup, so after noticing it still wasn't quite right I switched the qurterhorse between them and the problem didn't move. Then I swapped ECM's and sure enough the problem moved to the other vehicle. I'm sorry for any confusion I have caused, but Years ago I did have a problem similar with an actual Ford racing E303 cam and all that had to de done was to change the injector timing at idle to 420. After digging around on an old laptop I found the calibration file for my old Maverick and was able to see what was done to it. Anyway all that's left to do now is wait for warmer weather so that I can data log the cougar and load it into EECanalyzer to fine-tune everything. Thank you all for the help!
74 Ford E100, 5.0 Explorer engine with AOD transmission and is now carbureted.

1987 Mercury Cougar XR7, T5 swapped and currently in the process of HO swap

2014 Harley Davidson FLHXS.

2003 GMC Sierra 3500 6.6 Duramax untouched and used to tow anything I blow up back home.

ASE Master Technician and Advanced Level Specialist.
It's not what I know, It's knowing what I don't know.

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Re: E303 injector timing

Post by MrsJones » Sat Jan 25, 2025 12:51 pm

I'm happy you figured out the problem. I was about to say, I've installed a number of E cams, raced with a group of people with this cam and never had this problem. Happy to hear, sorry about your ECM.

Larry
1993 Mustang Coupe, Boss block low compression 331 cu/in, Victor Jr. heads, TFS Stage 2 cam, GT40 tubular intake, 30# injectors, 65 mm Pro-M MAF w/balance of induction stock, BBK shortys and 2 1/2 exhaust. A9L GUFB w/Moates QH, BE and EA.

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