Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

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cgrey8
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Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:08 pm

There's been a number of newbies asking what the first things to adjust in a tune before attempting to run the tune on a newly modified engine.

From what I know, the main things to change in a MAF-based tune are:
  • MAF curve
  • Injector Slope, Breakpoint, and Offset parameters
  • CID
  • If EGR removed, disable EGR
  • If Smog Pump removed, disable Thermactor
  • If Canister Purge valve removed, disable CANP
  • If trans type has been changed, modify the trans type scalar
  • If you know you are not running HEGOs, force Open Loop operation
Once you get some more data and know what's amiss, then you can begin attacking specific problems. But can anybody else think of any other settings that can be modified prior to 1st crank?

This thread is not intended to cover SD. Although if people have SD-specific info they'd like to share, indicate it is SD-specific.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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decipha

Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by decipha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:48 pm

max out the backflow clip
reduce the min maf scalar if you have a high flow meter
revamp the base fuel table as you can not dial in fuel with how their setup
null the wot multiplier or at least make it consistent
null the maf compensation table

probably about 45-60 other things i can think of that are just stupid in the stock foxbody calibrations

as soon as i get free time i'll post a modified-stock A9L the way henry should have made it

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:04 pm

While that will help the GUFx people, I'm trying to keep the topic generic enough that any strat can make use of this. Although sometimes that's just not possible. So when strat-specific adjustments are recommendable for a base-tune, mention the strats it applies to or at least the "era" of strats if the adjustment covers a wide range of similar strategies.

Otherwise, good calls on those things mentioned. I knew I was forgetting stuff. I just couldn't think of what all they were.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by Disney Lincoln » Tue May 01, 2012 11:38 am

I always go ahead and turn adaptives off until I can get a handle on the tune after initial startup.


I would like to see Decipha's A9L tune. It sounds like he's got more things before start up than I do and it would be nice to have more help on that.
1990 Mark VII Twin T3's JYTT--60# --stock block 306, HCI--AOD 3400stall--A3M1--Moates QH -- BE/EA
1989 Mark VII S/C 6 speed. HCI--42#--Vortech--Anderson B31--LT's--All the goodies--QH -- BE/EA
1987 Buick GN 61mm, ported heads/intake, other stuff...`
2002 Lightning -- Whipple @24#, 60s, LTs, SBTB, 3400stall, Everything Else....

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Tue May 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Disney Lincoln wrote:I always go ahead and turn adaptives off until I can get a handle on the tune after initial startup...
That would be my practice too, but a lot of people prefer to tune with adaptives ON.

Are there any EEC-V things that could be included here that relate to PATS, Variable Fuel Pumps, Transmissions, CAI upgrades, ignition changes/upgrades, OBD-II emissions hacks to force PASS, etc?

For example from what I've heard, you don't simply disable secondary HEGO monitoring as that would cause an OBD-II test to fail as that's a required test to be active for most vehicles. Instead, you widen the EEC's tolerances to the max so any condition is a PASS. Since all the OBD-II emission test is doing is checking that the test is being done and that the test results are PASS, the vehicle passes as long as they don't do a tailpipe sniff test too. The details of doing that (i.e. PID/scalar names) are things I don't know and I'd think would be useful to include here for someone trying to get a no-cat street vehicle to pass local emissions tests with things that look like CATs in the exhaust system.

I'd think there are similar tests for EGR-equipped that might benefit from the same kinds of mods to their parameters as well for EGR-deleted engines. Although EGR is one of those things I never recommend someone ditch for no reason. The only good reason I can think of to need to ditch EGR is because EFI is being put on an engine that didn't have computer controlled EGR support to start with (i.e. 351C) or the aftermarket intake parts ordered don't have EGR provisions on them.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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decipha

Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by decipha » Tue May 01, 2012 1:55 pm

obd2 is easy just set the fault up counter to 0 to prevent the code and set the ranges to their max limits for tests

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by 85GT » Tue May 01, 2012 6:31 pm

I wondered if the emission OBDII tests ever check for valid checksums for the particular vehicles.
Our tests in NY, the machines are connected on-line to some central DOT? server.
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 pm

I doubt it unless there's some coordination between the DOT and ALL of the manufacturers about what official Binaries and checksums are. I doubt such coordination exists or even is feasible as mfgs can update their tunes and release them as dealer updates when customers come in or complain about a particular issue. Also, it is not illegal to have computers retuned. This would require that SCT and anybody else that does legitimate (emission legal) retuning to submit all their custom tunes too...and that just doesn't happen. Thus it is my understanding that a car's OBD-II computer is trusted implicitly by OBD-II emission testing computers. If the computer says all's a PASS, it isn't questioned as long as the required I/M monitors indicate they are active. As a result, it seems easier to pass OBD-II emissions tests than 95-earlier tailpipe tests which actually have to pass the sniffer's requirements.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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decipha

Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by decipha » Tue May 01, 2012 6:48 pm

impretty sure they have to pass the sniffer as well as obd2 tests

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by 85GT » Tue May 01, 2012 6:55 pm

decipha wrote:impretty sure they have to pass the sniffer as well as obd2 tests
Not for NY, just an OBDII connection.

We use to have the IM240 (dyno) test for OBDI, but that stopped last year.
85GT, 302 w/Dart Windsor Jr heads, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm slot MAF, 34lbs injectors, BBK shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 9" rear w/3.25s
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse w/LC-1 WB

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Tue May 01, 2012 7:55 pm

Here in Ga, 96-newer vehicles only have to pass the EEC's internal I/M monitor tests. There are fewer and fewer emissions testing facilities with dyno rollers for older cars to test on. All new facilities are 96-newer only and they don't have rollers or sniffers.

I'm fairly sure the reason they aren't expanding the number of counties in Ga that have to do emissions testing is because the counties don't want to have to invest in rollers for what is an ever-decreasing number of cars that will require them. Only vehicles 25 years old and newer have to be tested. Once they are 26 years old, they no longer require testing. This year, 87 and newer have to be tested. Next year, it'll be 88 and newer. Since anything 96 and newer is OBD-II, that only leaves maybe 10% of testable vehicles requiring the dyno and sniffer. That's a huge investment for a new emissions company for what will be rarely used equipment and soon completely obsolete. And I expect the uproar from people in those counties forced to go to other counties just to get tested will be more than the state gov't wants to deal with.

If the EPA does push for more Georgia counties like they've been threatening to do for the past 10+ years, I fully expect they'll compromise with the state and completely drop 95-older from requiring testing. Unfortunately that will probably modify the rule that 96-newer will forever need to be tested and thus no years will ever fall off the required testing list. But as stated for performance guys, that's hardly a concern since OBD-II apparently is easy to fake-out and make pass even if the car puffed black smoke out the tail pipe. And without the equipment in the emissions tents, there's little the emission testers can do about it even if they suspect a car isn't really passing.

Although I have heard in other states, the cars do have to pass both OBD-II as well as sniff tests. In fact, I was reading one state's emissions requirements that said if the OBD-II computer is failing them, the owner can request, what's called a second chance sniff test and if the car passes the sniff test, the emissions tester can pass the vehicle even if the computer says FAIL.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by Disney Lincoln » Wed May 02, 2012 12:01 pm

Here in TN, on OBDII cars, I just disable the secondary O2 all together. I zero out all of the rear O2 settings and they still pass emmissions. BUT... here they only check to see if your ECU has any codes stored. Any codes and you fail. So long as the CEL isn't lit up you're in the clear.

Don't get me started on PATS.... So freaking frustrating.
1990 Mark VII Twin T3's JYTT--60# --stock block 306, HCI--AOD 3400stall--A3M1--Moates QH -- BE/EA
1989 Mark VII S/C 6 speed. HCI--42#--Vortech--Anderson B31--LT's--All the goodies--QH -- BE/EA
1987 Buick GN 61mm, ported heads/intake, other stuff...`
2002 Lightning -- Whipple @24#, 60s, LTs, SBTB, 3400stall, Everything Else....

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Wed May 02, 2012 12:31 pm

I'm amazed you pass with the secondary HEGOs disabled. I know not all I/M monitors are applicable such as AC pressure & EGR monitoring, but I just assumed the secondary HEGO monitor would be required for all 96-newer vehicles to pass any state's OBD-II emission test since all 96-newer vehicles require some kind of on-board CAT efficiency monitoring. Interesting...

Oh but another thing I thought of that would need to be updated in a new tune is if your EEC strategy contain's the vehicle VIN number as part of the tune. Some states query the EEC to confirm that the VIN in the EEC is the same as the VIN of the vehicle being evaluated. This is a problem for people doing things like V8 conversions where the engine & EEC came from some other donor that may not have been the same make/year/model as us V8 Ranger coverters do. Does anybody have details as to whether the stored VIN is literally part of the tune binary or if it is part of some auxiliary memory that has to be updated separately from the tune. I know EECs with the VIN can be updated by the dealer. But if we have the ability to do it ourselves, that's useful info to know as well.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by AaronDC » Wed May 02, 2012 5:14 pm

Is there a way to set the MAF curve without being able to datalog? I've tried to find a curve for my specific MAF tube, and haven't had any luck.

As a newbie, I'm excited to see a thread like this. I would be even more excited to see a how-to link for each of the bullet items listed in the first post.

PS- I'm running on EEC-V.
2001 SVT Lightning
-0/4/6# Lower, Ported SC, EGR delete, C&L Plenum and Elbow, LT headers, Hi-Flow Cats, Bassani cat-back, BE/QH, POPS MNAE0 strategy

2003 SVT Focus
-Mostly stock drivetrain, Lots of suspension mods

1998 SVT Contour
-3L Swapped Beater

!990 Geo Metro
-Ford Duratec 3L in the back (LeMons race car)

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by Disney Lincoln » Wed May 02, 2012 6:03 pm

cgrey8 wrote:I'm amazed you pass with the secondary HEGOs disabled. I know not all I/M monitors are applicable such as AC pressure & EGR monitoring, but I just assumed the secondary HEGO monitor would be required for all 96-newer vehicles to pass any state's OBD-II emission test since all 96-newer vehicles require some kind of on-board CAT efficiency monitoring. Interesting...

Oh but another thing I thought of that would need to be updated in a new tune is if your EEC strategy contain's the vehicle VIN number as part of the tune. Some states query the EEC to confirm that the VIN in the EEC is the same as the VIN of the vehicle being evaluated. This is a problem for people doing things like V8 conversions where the engine & EEC came from some other donor that may not have been the same make/year/model as us V8 Ranger coverters do. Does anybody have details as to whether the stored VIN is literally part of the tune binary or if it is part of some auxiliary memory that has to be updated separately from the tune. I know EECs with the VIN can be updated by the dealer. But if we have the ability to do it ourselves, that's useful info to know as well.

I would guess htat's a state-state deal. Here in TN they are only checking for a basic pass/fail. When they connect to the vehicle it's checking to see if it's been at least 50 miles since the last clear and that it does not have any current codes. Of course they are the root cause for 50% of these codes because they check the gas filler neck for proper diameter and many times don't get the cap back on right and it will set a code as you pull into the test station. Then you fial and have to come back and sit in line for another hour after clearing codes and tightening the cap......
1990 Mark VII Twin T3's JYTT--60# --stock block 306, HCI--AOD 3400stall--A3M1--Moates QH -- BE/EA
1989 Mark VII S/C 6 speed. HCI--42#--Vortech--Anderson B31--LT's--All the goodies--QH -- BE/EA
1987 Buick GN 61mm, ported heads/intake, other stuff...`
2002 Lightning -- Whipple @24#, 60s, LTs, SBTB, 3400stall, Everything Else....

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by cgrey8 » Wed May 02, 2012 6:38 pm

AaronDC wrote:Is there a way to set the MAF curve without being able to datalog? I've tried to find a curve for my specific MAF tube, and haven't had any luck...
You can set the MAF curve to whatever you want. What you can't do with confidence is tweak the MAF curve for your vehicle's needs without datalogging. Before datalogging existed, people used to use a Wideband along with a volt meter to tweak the MAF, but that's 1 step above Carb tuning...and expert carb tuners probably got better results.
AaronDC wrote:...As a newbie, I'm excited to see a thread like this. I would be even more excited to see a how-to link for each of the bullet items listed in the first post...
The exact details of each bulleted item will likely be similar, but enough different from strategy to strategy that I wouldn't think to make each one their own topic to cover all possibilities. I want this thread to be more of a guide to newbies of what to change just to get a tune capable of hopefully cranking and running the engine, even if poorly so. Once the engine is running, datalogging and your senses will have to take over to guide you on what's next to tweak. My gut feeling is that fuel tweaks and idle tweaks will be the vast majority of the early tweaks on a new tune. Conservative/safe spark values are good enough for this effort. Once idle and fuel are dialed in and the engine's been taught some manners, then you can start experimenting with upping spark advance. Although optimal spark advance values with many engines will either be ping-limited or will require a dyno to identify.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: Things to adjust in a tune before 1st crank

Post by AaronDC » Thu May 03, 2012 8:36 am

Tuning my MAF curve is what I'm more interested in. I know where/how to change the MAF values, but I prefer to not do it blindly.

I've got a device (AeroForce Intercepter) that can read/display MAF voltage in the cab. I've also got a wideband with a display in the cab. I'm considering setting up a camera (GoPro) to "log" both gages along with my tach. I guess I could then use those values to confirm/tune my MAF curve, right? Or are there other values I need to optimize that?

If this is getting too far off topic for the thread, let me know, and I'll start a new thread.
2001 SVT Lightning
-0/4/6# Lower, Ported SC, EGR delete, C&L Plenum and Elbow, LT headers, Hi-Flow Cats, Bassani cat-back, BE/QH, POPS MNAE0 strategy

2003 SVT Focus
-Mostly stock drivetrain, Lots of suspension mods

1998 SVT Contour
-3L Swapped Beater

!990 Geo Metro
-Ford Duratec 3L in the back (LeMons race car)

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