Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Anything about Ford EEC tuning. TwEECer and Moates questions dominate, but there's some SCT and OBD-II knowledge too.

Moderators: cgrey8, EDS50, 2Shaker, Jon 94GT

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:39 pm

I am looking for options for a problem a don't have yet. I recently learned that the engine builder of my boat engine (PCM) ran out of spare ECMs. I'm a total noob here, but this is what I understand. The Ford motors were run with efi from around 95-2003 when Ford stopped making marine engines. My understanding is that PCM used a proprietary "tune" on their marine engines. What I know is that its 5.8 gt40 heads rated to 310 HP eec-iv using speed density (apparently o2 sensors not reliable in marine exhaust). My '97 is still running strong but if my ecu were to take a dump I am wondering what my best option would be. Not knowing the strategy used on my working ecu, I am wondering if it is possible to make a copy of the .bin and save it to another ecu with a jaybird? Or would it be easier to just start from scratch with a common variety ecu or megasquirt. Failing that, does anybody know how hard it is to repair ecus?

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10714
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:40 pm

Here are my thoughts. I could be wrong, so get confirmation on everything I say.

If the EEC ever does puke, just use a CBAZA EEC as a replacement. However that's a MAF-based EEC, not an SD.

I don't remember when the trucks went away from SD and started using a MAF. But others here would know that. Their strategies, at one point, weren't that well known. But by now, I'm betting they are. So they may be options as well.

If you can post up your existing EEC's info (i.e. take a picture of the label on the harness connector). From there, some guesses can be made as to what Ford EEC hardware platform it was based on and can possibly recommend an actual hardware drop-in replacement that could be chipped with your existing EEC's tune. To make use of that option, you would need to get a read of your existing EEC so you could write that tune to a chip. You wouldn't need to know the strategy or much of anything else about it. Simply knowing its EEC-IV tells you it is single-bank, so read out your existing EEC's tune. Write the tune, as read, to a Moates chip. Done. Now to make any modifications to the tune, you would need to know the strategy AND have a def file capable of deciphering that strategy.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
EDS50
Administrator
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:17 am
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by EDS50 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:16 pm

Ford started to introduce mass air to the obd1 trucks 94-96 and went full swing in 96 with the switch over to obd2. The 93-95 351 Lightnings were all SD and I believe all the 250/350 trucks remained SD with the 460. The OP should be able to use any of the 93-95 Lightning computers if he is looking to stay SD.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:12 pm

If you can take a picture of your current ecu tag on the connector that will let us know what calibration it is and what hardware revision it is. That will help us to identify a direct drop in or one as close as possible. I personally would be interested in seeing what is different about the bin if it is in fact strictly for marine use. If your exact calibration isn't available anymore knowing what hardware revision your ecu is, may shed some light on other ecus that are compatible hardware wise that you could use an chip to run your calibration on. It would be wise to backup your ecu if it truely is marine specific.
vanhanbr wrote:I am looking for options for a problem a don't have yet. I recently learned that the engine builder of my boat engine (PCM) ran out of spare ECMs. I'm a total noob here, but this is what I understand. The Ford motors were run with efi from around 95-2003 when Ford stopped making marine engines. My understanding is that PCM used a proprietary "tune" on their marine engines. What I know is that its 5.8 gt40 heads rated to 310 HP eec-iv using speed density (apparently o2 sensors not reliable in marine exhaust). My '97 is still running strong but if my ecu were to take a dump I am wondering what my best option would be. Not knowing the strategy used on my working ecu, I am wondering if it is possible to make a copy of the .bin and save it to another ecu with a jaybird? Or would it be easier to just start from scratch with a common variety ecu or megasquirt. Failing that, does anybody know how hard it is to repair ecus?
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

LeadHead
Tuning Addict
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by LeadHead » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:49 pm

From the last time someone posted about the Ford Marine EFI engines, I believe the closest thing strategy wise was a Lightning PCM.

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:52 pm

I remember that one vaguely. I think at least for informational purposes it would be beneficial to have a photo of the ecu tag and a copy of the bin.
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 pm

Thanks guys for all the responses. I just found out about this shortage so my heads been spinning a little. I contacted PCM and weren't much help as far as providing info on stratagies. They told me they were sending broken ecm's off to hopefully be repaired but ran out of spares. My boat is in winter storage, but I will get info on it ASAP. Are the lightning ecm's hard to come by?

LeadHead
Tuning Addict
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by LeadHead » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:55 am

Lightning PCMs themselves, sorta. However the lightning PCM's hardware isn't really any different than any other speed-density ECU of the era, and if I remember correctly, pretty much any Ford speed-density truck computer can run the Lightning software.

So making a "clone" of your PCM might be as simple as just making reading of it's factory software with a Quarterhorse or similar and then putting it on any generic Ford Truck speed-density computer.

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:02 am

I believe the part number to be F4FF-12A650-LB. The PCM service manual listed the ecm as -12A650- and I checked the ecm last night and could only find a non-ford looking sticker with the other numbers.

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:10 am

There should be a sticker on the ecu connector itself. Best bet would be to take some pictures so we can see what's going on.
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:43 am

Is there a trick the removing the wiring harness? I don't want to break anything and I have to remove the harness to get the ecu out of a watertight case to see if there is a sticker on the connector. Thanks.

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10714
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:48 am

All Ford EECs that I'm aware of hold the wiring harness onto the EEC with a bolt that goes through the middle of the connector. You unscrew that bolt from the EEC which gradually backs all the pins out of the harness as the bolt unscrews. Once the bolt is obviously no longer threaded to the EEC, then you can just pull the harness and EEC apart if it doesn't fall away all on its own.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:58 am

Thanks

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:38 pm

PCM confirmed the Ford part # to be F4FF-12A650-LB. I will post up some pictures tonight.

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by jsa » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:10 pm

vanhanbr wrote:I believe the part number to be F4FF-12A650-LB. The PCM service manual listed the ecm as -12A650- and I checked the ecm last night and could only find a non-ford looking sticker with the other numbers.
12A650 is the ford designation for ecu, as in pretty much any ecu.

F4FF narrows it down to year and vehicle model to some extent.

LB is the specific part, for both hardware/software in this case.

The number that will help us help you is the hardware code from the label. Hence the request for pics.

Any other EEC with the same hardware code can be chipped with software from your part.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:08 pm

Here are some pics:

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10714
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:19 pm

The tune is an E290. Interesting. Although it doesn't mean anything to me. Perhaps someone else will recognize that as a tune they've seen elsewhere and know its strategy name.

As for the engine, the upper intake looks like a 93-95 Cobra upper. There's some minor cosmetic casting differences...but I'm betting functionally they are the same. The Explorer upper looks similar, although I believe the Explorer's runners are just a tad longer.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

LeadHead
Tuning Addict
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by LeadHead » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:26 pm

It appears to have a unique hardware code, however the hardware inside might be the same. Can you open the lid and take a picture?

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by jsa » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:24 am

E290 is the catchcode which encompasses software and hardware by association.

EFI-MA39C is the hardware code which can run other software.

http://www.2040-parts.com/volvo-penta-o ... -i1750275/

You could get another EFI-MA39C with a different catchcode and put your E290 code on a J3 chip.

http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.p ... 455#p91916

http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.p ... 438#p91915

http://mustangforums.com/forum/5-0l-197 ... -c1a1.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-FORD-MO ... 1563167233

As others have asked, pull the lid and put a couple pics up.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:04 am

What I find the most odd is the hardware code is used in this instance on a v8, but the same hardware code is also used on 4 cylinder mustangs and only those. I was under the impression that the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder ecus lacked the outputs to run a v8.

I see two possibilities for this.

First, this particular ecu hardware code has all of the hardware in place to run a v8. So tuning it to run a v8 is trivial.

Second, they are doing some trickery with the wiring harness and running in sudo batch fire mode.

It's strange that ford went with this hardware, over some other hardware that was originally designed for use the a v8.
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:39 am

Internal pics, thanks for all the interest so far.

Image


Image

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:07 pm

ironmanisanemic wrote:...Second, they are doing some trickery with the wiring harness and running in sudo batch fire mode....
I believe the service manual mentioned firing the cylinders in a batch mode. Could me wrong, I'm trying to learn here myself. Here's the link to the manual:

http://www.planetnautique.com/CorrectCr ... Manual.pdf

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:17 pm

Interesting read. Only quickly went through it, but it appears that they are getting away with using a 4 cylinder ecu by using batch fire. The harness on the engine side appears to be a standard v8 harness with individual wiring for each injector, but the ecu side of the harness is where they tied the banks together. There seems to be some other interesting tricks, like the high water temp or low oil pressure causing the engine to go no faster than 2800rpm.
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10714
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by cgrey8 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:47 pm

According to both the diagram and the verbiage, they are firing 4 injectors with a single EEC Injector Driver. Was that typical in the batch-fire days or did the automotive EECs dedicate a driver-per-injector even if the injector control strategy was batch fire? In other words, on the 4 cylinder vehicles that also used this EEC, did Ford tie 2 injectors to one pin and the other 2 injectors to another pin?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
Paulie
Tuning Addict
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:05 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by Paulie » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:21 pm

I just happened to look at a 1992 Mustang 2.3L and the injectors were wired in pairs. 1 and 4 were together and 2 and 3 were together.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by jsa » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:26 pm

I have seen a couple wiring diagrams around the web showing v8 batch fire as 4 injectors per output.

Not seen anything on i4 batch fire.

The manual confirms 4 injectors per output.

There are 8 devices on the EEC internal side wall. These are the output drivers and volt regulators.

99.9% any other EFI-MA39C with your E290 code on a J3 chip will get you going.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10714
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by cgrey8 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:28 pm

The catch is the tune needs to be extracted while the EEC is still good so that it can be burned at a later date.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

vanhanbr
Gear Head
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by vanhanbr » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Well, I am definitely going to try. I ordered the EFI-MA39C ecm jsa had linked to on ebay. There were plenty of cheaper ones, but this one looked to be in good shape. What should I buy from Moates to read my marine ecm? The Moates website listed the Burn 2 + FE + FA combination, but can I also read it with a Quarterhorse? If I can get everything to work, I would prefer to just burn the .bin to a chip instead of leaving the Quarterhorse connected all the time as I wouldn't necessarily need/be able to change anything. But maybe there is a slight chance sailorbob's C1A1 def file would work in BE ?

ironmanisanemic
Regular
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:33 pm
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by ironmanisanemic » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:42 pm

vanhanbr wrote:Well, I am definitely going to try. I ordered the EFI-MA39C ecm jsa had linked to on ebay. There were plenty of cheaper ones, but this one looked to be in good shape. What should I buy from Moates to read my marine ecm? The Moates website listed the Burn 2 + FE + FA combination, but can I also read it with a Quarterhorse? If I can get everything to work, I would prefer to just burn the .bin to a chip instead of leaving the Quarterhorse connected all the time as I wouldn't necessarily need/be able to change anything. But maybe there is a slight chance sailorbob's C1A1 def file would work in BE ?
Burn2 combo is the cheapest option if you just want to pull the bin and burn a chip.

There is a small chance that the c1a1 strat may work, but its slim. Worth a shot to try it out. If you do pull the bin would you post it up here? There may be someone curious enough to analyze it and work out a def for it.
1989 Ford Bronco:
-393W, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ProComp Upper and lower intake, Custom Comp Hyd Roller cam, 10:1 compression,FRPP LU34 34lb injectors, 75mm TB, Pro-M 80mm MAF, equal length short tube headers, 2.5 inch y pipe merged into single 3 inch with hooker aerochamber muffler and no cat, QH w/ BE and EA running U4P0, 4R70W

1995 Ford Mustang GT
-Bone stock minus the QH. 5 Speed. T4M0

Ford 8061/8065 processor, assembly/dissasembly, strategy development information on my GDrive Share

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Tuning Marine Ford 351W GT40

Post by jsa » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:54 pm

Could also desolder the PROM and solder it in another working EFI-MA39C.

Then you would not need a J3 chip. Be wise to extract the code though for future.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests