[Scaffy]

I have a friend who is installing a Kenne Bell 2.2L with Flowzilla on his stock bottom end 5L. He has e-303 and AFR 165s with 75mm TB, Lightning MAF and 42lb injectors.

He's impressed with the job I've done tuning my own car and has asked if I can tune his ute. I've never tuned a supercharged application, so would be keen to hear the differences between SC and NA. I've read the "Tuning a supercharged car" thread in the FAQ section and would like to know if the same information applies to positive displacement as centrifugal?

If, by chance, someone is running a similar combo as I have described above, would it be possible to have a look at your tune, please?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[mike8675309]

My car cam stock with a positive displacement blower, but I can tell you what is different on mine now with a blower over 1 liter bigger than the stock one.

for me your injectors sound small, but then, I'm used to folks running 17-20psi, how much boost do you intend to run?

To be honest, there are a bunch of changes. Most related to retarding timing at a number of places including those driven by RPM and by Load for part throttle and WOT. Various changes to improve idle.

then changes for fuel injectors and custom MAF transfer. I don't know that there is much difference between a centrifugal blower, though the RPM points or Load points where the timing retarding occurs may be lower, since most positive displacement blowers develop high pressures right away in the RPM curve. I.e mine tends to peak below 3100rpm and lay flat as HP rises across the rpm band.

[decipha]

also blow thru and draw thru will make a dif as well every blown car i deal with it draw thru, be sure to enable fuel decel shut off if going that route

its really no different than tuning any other car really, just listen and feel the engine give her what she wants and keep it safe

[cougarnut281]

I've never seen a blow thru setup on a kennebell before.....

[Scaffy]

Hehe, blow thru Kenne Bell is an interesting concept . Boost is only going to be around 8 or 9psi until bottom end is rebuilt with all the good stuff. The goal is around 400rwhp, for which 42s will be sufficient. I'm confident in getting things like the MAF transfer, injector settings and idle sorted. Should injector timing table be the same as NA, or would that need to be modified also?

Things like load scaling and timing have me a bit unsure. I read that the max load point should be set up around 140 - 150%. How does one determine where it should be?

Is there a rule of thumb when it comes to retarding timing based on boost levels, e.g. -x* per xpsi?

One thing to note is that there is very little r&d that's gone into our Aussie EECs, so data-logging isn't an option for me on my friend's EEC at this point in time. I'm lucky enough to have Adam @ Pops Racing working on finding the parameters for data-logging on my EEC. We may have to see if he can work on this one next.

[decipha]

yeah adam has a few tricks up his sleeve that i won't talk about but if you have him in your corner you should be alright, without datalogging you'll be pretty upset

[Cougar5.0]

I have a similar combo and have a tune (a9l binary) and a Word file that explains why I made each change. I put this together based on a similar request on how to get started with a KB tune. I will have to update it, but I have no problem sharing this info. Perhaps you could PM me your email and I can forward it to you.

[Scaffy]

Decipha - Yeah, I'm really hoping to get the data-logging going on my car first, but haven't heard from Adam in a little while. I'm sure he's a busy man, so I'll wait patiently :)

Cougar5.0 - I'll take you up on that offer. I'll be sending a pm very soon. Thanks mate :D

[Cougar5.0]

I updated the file and sent it off to ya. Let me know if it's useful...

[garyd85gt]

I know this is an older thread, just wanted to say Cougar5.0 recently sent me his tune file and notes on tuning his KB for me to look over and use- this kind of information really helps a new tuner to look over and analyze not only what to do, but why it's done. Thanks again to EECtuning.org and Cougar on this one...

[decipha]

i want results damn it

any figures on output?

did you put a hurtin on any vette's or ferrari's?

the e303 cam is not ideal for boost, f303 would be better suited, but still there's better out there
i wouldn't push the stock rods at 400rwhp for very long
he should be on the verge of maxing out the maf and injectors

i did a a stock block and head 91 fox not too long ago, had an aftermarket cam and longtube headers with a vortech at 8lbs of boost, made 342rwhp very safely

[Jamlx1]

I wouldnt mind seeing some results as I'm in the process of tuning my 5.0 with a kb 2.1l at 11psi. Almost same combo cougar has in his.

[monkei]

I updated the file and sent it off

Hey Cougar5.0, any chance you'd be willing to send me the same word doc or maybe post it up in this thread?

[garyd85gt]

I could send you the file if he doesn't mind....
I have no results yet, just finished putting it all together before the snows came- just working on idle issues now, can't wait for spring.............................

[Jamlx1]

If cougar wouldn't mind Id like to see the write-up he did and changes and why

[Scaffy]

I'm very sorry I never got back on here to update this thread sooner! To be honest I forgot all about it!

A huge thanks must go to Cougar5.0 for sharing this info with me. I altered the tune whilst I was away at work and once the install was complete and she was ready to fire up, I went up to his and loaded the tune into the Tweecer. He fired her up and it sat there idling beautifully and we let it get up to operating temp. Checked for any leaks, all was good, so off we went for a drive.

As soon as we hit a nice, straight stretch of road, he slowly started to open her up. At about 1/3 throttle it started pinging it's head off. We stopped, pulled a heap of timing and it continued pinging. AFRs were at about 10:1 when this was happening, so we went back home and took a closer look. Then it hit him. When he re-installed the dizzy, he just threw it in there with the intention of setting base timing before we went out, but in all the excitement, he'd forgotten about it. Base timing was up about 20*!

After we'd sorted that, we got her back out there and got some power runs in and datalogged them (on Innovate datalogger as no datalogging available for our Aussie EECs). We spent a bit of time dialing in the MAF and got it to a point where we felt it was pretty safe and left it a bit rich and the timing down until we got it onto a dyno. Drivability was perfect - at low speeds you'd have thought it was stock. We also discovered that the water/meth injection was not working and intake temps were pretty high. I think we were seeing about 6psi at this time as well.

To cut a long story short, we got it on a dyno the next weekend and just as he was about to do his last power run a head gasket went pop. I think we did the damage on that first day, as the pinging was really bad and although he got off it straight away, it still would've been enough to blow out most of it, leaving it hanging on by a thread.

It didn't take long and he had it fixed and we were up on the dyno again. We ended up with 350rwhp & 711nm (524lb/ft ) with 6.5psi. Still, the water/meth inj wasn't working so we couldn't push it too far. On that tune we deliberately left it a bit rich and had timing a touch lower than we could because this vehicle had a few pretty hard months ahead of it. My mate loves his burnouts and loves beating up on this thing.

The last time we had it on the dyno was September, I think, and it's performed faultlessly since. I'm away for work until the 10th of March and, hopefully, by the time I get home he'll have the meth injection sorted on it. Also, a big thanks goes out to Derek (sailorbob) for creating a couple of strategies for our cars and after many, many, many hours, he's got datalogging working for us as well. So when I get home, the plan is to drop a Quarterhorse in there, get the big girl on another dyno and see how we go. I think he also wants to change the pulley and aim for 9 or 10psi if the meth injection plays nicely.

If you're thinking these power levels seem a bit low, the dyno that we've used up until now is a Mainline Dyno. These dynos tend to read a bit lower than the more common Dyno Dynamics Dynos that most tuners over here use. As an example, Jeff has quite consistently run over 300rwhp in NA guise on various DD dynos and on the Mainline he ran 270rwhp. As far as I know, some tuners use Dyno Dynamics over your side of the world and from what I'm led to believe they run a bit lower than the more commonly used dynos over there. I've had Aussies tell me this, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Now for the good stuff. Here she is in action...

Here he is in action at Powercruise in October -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyj6Yr2G0z0

Here's a burnout at Powercruise in October -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTRluzfuo4o

Here's a vid taken at Motorvation in January -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGSmWQXym3k


Here's his build thread. It's pretty long and I've just linked to the page where the install is pretty well complete. There are heaps of pics and vids in there too. It just depends on how much time you have...

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread ... e=23&pp=30

The info that Cougar5.0 shared with me made getting the base tune right a breeze. I can't say thankyou enough.

Cheers,

Chad

[Jamlx1]

That sure was a burnout. Did he have any tires left afterwards

[Scaffy]

Not really. He came off just before it was ready to spit wire and mess up his guards.

Have you got your tune sorted out? If so, what kind of power is it making and have you had it down the strip?

[Jamlx1]

Haven't gotten to far, weather is still to cold. Biggest issue I have right now is getting the idle squared away.

[decipha]

a dyno is nothing more than a tool, the output value is nothing more than a number

i had a very disgruntled and disappointed client once when his 351 swap in his fox only made 317rwhp, he left excited with how the car ran but was very upset with the numbers it put down, until he went heads up with a built z06 and stayed with him the whole way

[dsblk93gt]

Awesome car!! Decipha is right too. My friends 91 GT I put together back in '01 only made 346/384 on a dynojet with 7lbs of boost but at the track ran 11.75@119 with 10-11lbs. That was a stock shortblock 302, Edelbrock heads, 1.7 rockers, and a 1.5L Kenne Bell. It had 42lbers and 90mm LMAF as well. I had got a chip from Kenne Bell and it was the 1st one they had done for the 90mm MAF since they were still selling the 80mm. I will say the tune was damn good and drove perfect and ran hard.

[Scaffy]

I agree completely with the dyno only being a tuning tool. It probably sounded like it was all in the numbers for me, but usually it is for most other people and I've found myself trying to explain myself time and time again.

[Jamlx1]

I just hope mine comes along as well as Scaffy's friends did. I would very happy to have just over 400hp

[Jamlx1]

Heres where im at on my tune if anyone would like to take a peek and comment on any changes that may need made.
gufb/a9l. runs good but still need to make any and all changes to increase the idle up to 850.

[LaurenceC]

I am just getting started with my Kenne Bell setup on a 5.0 and would really like to see this document. Would you mind sharing this?

I had a tune done via a local speed shop and was able to pull the tune and load it on to my QH, but the route the tuner took seems very aggressive. Runs great under med/high/WOT, but not so good cruising. I have attached it if you want to comment.

Thanks
--Larry
https://www.caseydesignproducts.com/con ... 5-roadster

[Cougar5.0]

Wow, I haven't been around much lately - glad to see people find my tuning document useful. :bananadance:

I've been getting regular PMs to share this document, so I guess it'd be easier to post it here.

Here it is:

Tuning a Kenne Bell R2.pdf

I just got my Cougar up and running again after pushing out a headgasket on the last day of racing last fall. I had added a 35 shot of N2O and got a bit greedy with the timing. I learned one thing on that day though, the Lunati 73100 springs I was using got soft very quickly! I had noticed I was breaking up at high RPM, so I lowered the shift point from 5800 to 5400 RPM - I gained 3 MPH! :think:

So, while I had the heads off, I changed the springs to the new small diameter/lightweight LS style springs. They're about 150# on the seat compared to the Lunati that had deteriorated from 135# to 115# in 2 years :duh: We'll see how she does at the track sometime this month.