[jestang]

I've been browsing this forum for a few months now and after tinkering with binary editor until midnight last night trying to get my car to idle correctly, I figured it was time join lol. Afer reading various threads on idle tuning and how to start tuning with be I've been able to get the car to idle around 1200 rpm fairly consistent (with the idle air valve unplugged) on e85 at approximately .9 lambda (per my lc1 wideband). However, whenever I try to drop below that I keep getting idle surge. I am not sure that I've used the correct methods to get the car where it currently is so I think it is probably best if I just start over from scratch.

So where do I start? I’ve got my base timing (timing with spout out) set at 10 degrees and my abaco digital mass air setup to output the original stock 19lb mass air curve. I've switched be over to lambda in the settings and started with the stock a9l.bin file. I changed the fuel scalar Z_AFR to “E85”. I then forced the car into open loop by setting scalar Z_OLSW to “Force OL”. I proceeded to try to set my fuel injector high and low slopes (scalars AHISL & ALOSL). This is where I ran into my first problem. I do not know how to set my high and low injector slopes since the max value for the low injector slope is 112.xx (smaller than my 120 lb injectors). I attempted to set the injector high slope scalar at AHISL 100 and the low slope scalar ALOSL at 110 and try to scale the maf transfer curve. Is this the correct process for setting injector slopes for 120 lb and above injectors? I also played around with the injector battery voltage offsets but didn’t have much luck there. I have contacted the company I purchased the injectors from to get this data but haven’t heard back yet.

Soooooo …. What am I doing wrong and can you guys please help get me on my way? Thanks.

[jestang]

I forgot to mention I also disabled the adaptive fuel control (scalar Z_ADPSW) when trying to tune the idle.

[cgrey8]

You've got some interesting problems.

First, if you are getting rough/hunting idle with a .9 lambda as you approach idle, it may be your cam. While the WB is telling you things are .9 lambda, they may be a lot richer than that in the combustion chamber. It's quite common with performance cams for people to force fuel WB AFRs that "appear" really lean to get the engine to run smoothly. I think the common lean values are in the 16-17 AFR range at idle. With a 347 turbo setup, there's a fair chance the cam you've selected falls into this heavy-overlap category. Post up your cam specs.

Next, you don't want anything in the tune related to 19lb injectors if that's not what you are running. You want to run your actual MAF curve (as advertised byou the MAF mfg or as measured on a flow bench) and actual injector slope values when possible particularly when you are using a strategy with the Z_AFR scalar. Most of the time, this isn't a difficult thing to do because the available resoltion in slope values up to 112lb injectors is good enough. The average person doesn't need injectors larger than about 80lbs even with E85. However with you having 120lb injectors, this is going to require a different tact. The one thing working for you is you are using E85 which is going to make your efforts a little easier. Keep your MAF's actual MAF curve in the tune. But you'll need to lie to the computer about your fuel and injector size. Set the Z_AFR scalar back to gasoline even though you are running E85. Scale your actual injector slopes down by 25% (multiply them by .75). So instead of trying to enter 120, which you can't, enter 90lb for the injector values. From this point on, assume what you are running is gasoline and that the injectors are roughly 90lb injectors. From there, you can get datalogs to help you hone in on better slope/bp values using EEC Analyzer. Incidently this is the same procedure followed when trying to run E85 on a strategy that doesn't have a Z_AFR scalar.

The only place that you should keep in mind that you are still running E85 is in the Fuel table(s). At WOT, you probably really want to target a .70-.75 lambda, not .80 lambda as you likely would with gasoline and a boosted engine. If you are running a GUFx tune, consider adding the FN1360 patch to your tune. This will give you better control of your Open Loop fueling AFRs across the RPM/Load range. The tune without FN1360, only has FN1307 which is not RPM/Load based. It's ECT/Load based.


As for Disabling Adaptive Learning, you did that already without realizing it when you forced Open Loop. Adaptive Learning requires Closed Loop to learn. With Forced Open Loop, Closed Loop can't run, which means Adaptive Learning doesn't learn even if enabled.

[jestang]

Thanks for the response. That thought did cross my mind. I can try leaning it up some more at idle and see if the car likes that. Here are the cam specs:

236/236 duration @.050 571/571 valve lift 114lsa 112icl with 2deg advance

The maf I am running is the abaco programmable dbx85 mass air meter (http://www.abacoperformance.com/products.htm). I can program it to output whatever voltage I'd like based on the airflow. Right now it is programmed to mimic a stock mustang air meter. So I should go into my abaco mass air meter and reprogram the curve to match 120lb injectors or ??? I can give you the actual mass air table from the abaco mass air meter if needed?

I will swap the Z_AFR scalar back to gasoline and scale my injector slopes down by 25% like you mentioned. Once I do that, do I continue to adjust my injector slope scalars to adjust my afr where I want it or would I adjust my maf transfer function?

I will also add the FN1360 patch as you mentioned. Thanks for the help.

[cgrey8]

Yeah that cam is pretty aggressive and well within the realm of what I would expect would tend to fake-out a WB into thinking the mix is lean. See what happens on big overlap cams is unburned intake air slips through to the exhaust unburned. When that happens, the WB picks up on that unburned oxygen and wrongfully interprets it as a lean burn. The actual burn in the combustion chamber is likely very rich and thus causing the hunting. Don't be afraid to run it lean at low RPM/Loads. Even if it really was lean, there's just not enough fuel energy pumping through the engine to do damage. Lean is only a concern when you start getting into the harder acceleration conditions and into boost. At these conditions, you don't want to be anywhere near stoic, and certainly not above it.

Since you do have such an aggressive cam, go ahead and up your injector timing values to values in the 400-450 range. You can come back and adjust these later if you find that this has things delayed a little too far, but this should get the fire enough past TDC and close to the Exhaust Valve Close event that you aren't loosing a bunch of fuel along with the air being scavenged out the exhaust port.

As for the curve, I would not use a curve for 120lb injectors. Since you'll be using E85, the injector's "effective" size will be closer to 90s. So if Abaco has a curve for 90lb injectors, set it up for that and transfer that curve into your tune. You want the actual MAF behavior defined in the tune so if the Abaco is measuring 2000kg/hr of air, the EEC is receiving a voltage it can associate to a value near 2000kg/hr of air in the tune's MAF transfer (FN036) curve.

See how this works for you. Don't be surprised if it still doesn't run great. This is just a starting point to get some datalogs with. Once you got some datalogs, you can run those through EEC Analyzer, get some better slope/bp values and then start perfecting things a little more. BTW, with injectors as large as 120lb, I would expect you will need a really low Injector Offset curve. If you don't have an offset curve, find something close like whatever is used by 80lb Dekas. It won't be perfect, but it'll be better than the stock 19lb injector curve for sure. The stock curve is WAY too high. Also don't be surprised if the high slope/low slope are values really close to each other. Large injectors like these may not even require a high/low split. You may find whatever slope values you see in EA can be attained with a single value for both high and low.

Once you get a few datalogs that are all showing that your slopes are dialed in pretty well, forget about them, and focus on other parts of the tune like getting the idle right.

[jestang]

Ok, I'll try leaning it out at idle and see if she likes that.

How do I adjust my injector timing values? Do I want to do this for idle only or for the entire rpm range? Do I just adjust the values in "fuel - injector timing table" (fn1315)?

Where can I find the injector battery offset for the siemens deka 80lb injectors you mentioned? The company I purchased my injectors from hasn't been able to produce this data.

[decipha]

week before last i did an 03 cobra with lucas? low impedance 120s and a versa fueler w/ 3x gt pumps returnless just to throw fuel on the fire he had the stock meter with a mafia

it was a mess not consistent at all and all over the place, finally figured out what was going on, thing was hitting every clip there is to possibly hit, theres a bunch more in the newer ecu's but keep that in mind if you find yourself constantly changing something back and forth

be sure you set the min airflow clip to 0, the stock value although very low may give you issues, doubtful but noteworthy

btw i eventually set the idle at 1k rpm w/ 14 degrees of timing, in part was due to his cam it still loped there but idle'd fine <1% duty cycle at idle

like you i didn't have any info on the injectors either, if i were in your shoes i'd take the stock offset and divide it by 4

also boost & e85 doesn't like to be lean at all at WOT, i usually put them around .7 lambda or 10.2 AFR for gasoline values

how much boost you running? hope you got a serious fuel system

[cgrey8]

I should've mentioned that. FN037 will need to be maxed out. If that doesn't make sense, just do a search of FN037 for more info.

[jestang]

week before last i did an 03 cobra with lucas? low impedance 120s and a versa fueler w/ 3x gt pumps returnless just to throw fuel on the fire he had the stock meter with a mafia

it was a mess not consistent at all and all over the place, finally figured out what was going on, thing was hitting every clip there is to possibly hit, theres a bunch more in the newer ecu's but keep that in mind if you find yourself constantly changing something back and forth

be sure you set the min airflow clip to 0, the stock value although very low may give you issues, doubtful but noteworthy

btw i eventually set the idle at 1k rpm w/ 14 degrees of timing, in part was due to his cam it still loped there but idle'd fine <1% duty cycle at idle

like you i didn't have any info on the injectors either, if i were in your shoes i'd take the stock offset and divide it by 4

also boost & e85 doesn't like to be lean at all at WOT, i usually put them around .7 lambda or 10.2 AFR for gasoline values

how much boost you running? hope you got a serious fuel system

I went through and made the changes you mentioned in your non-stock MAF.tx file so I think I have the airflow clip taken care of. I will give the stock injector offset divided by 4 a shot and see how that goes. Yeah i was thinking around low .7 lambda for WOT. Think I've got enough fuel system .... gonna start at 7 lbs and creep up on the boost tho just to make sure. Hoping to end up around 20 lbs of boost.

Thanks for the help.

[decipha]

cool, that should put you around ~900 hp unlikely with that turbo though

[jestang]

cgrey:

Where do I change my injector timing values? Do I want to do this for idle only or for the entire rpm range? Should I adjust the values in "fuel - injector timing table" (fn1315)? Or do I need to enable CIDRSW (fuel - enable special injector timing at idle) and change scalar MIDTV (fuel - injector timing value at idle) to my desired timing (450 crank deg)? Thanks.

[cgrey8]

The main place is the Timing table (FN1315). However there are a scattering of other scalars that control timing at idle and neutral conditions. As long as you are starting with a stock A9L tune, those should be disabled, but I believe the X3Z (93 Cobra) tune has them enabled. So you'll either want to disable them or set the associated Idle/Neutral special timing scalars also. Search for scalar PIDs CIDRSW, CINTSW, MIDTV, and CINTV.

[mat50ho]

try these values. Iuse these with the lucas 120s on e85. Like said above scale, load, air flow and injector values

HS 68.3
LS 74.14
break Point 2.99E-05

fuel start up ol table

0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915
0.915 1.144 0.801 0.458 0.343 0.801 0.801 0.229 0.458 0.915




Injector offset vs battery

15.9375 0.3750
15.0000 0.3750
14.0000 0.4375
13.0000 0.5000
12.0000 0.8438
11.0000 0.9688
10.0000 1.1563
8.0000 1.8438
6.0000 4.9063
0.0000 4.9063
0.0000 4.9063
0.0000 4.9063

cranking pulsewidth vs ect
65534 0.15
180 0.15
150 0.15
70 0.80
40 2.00
20 2.67
0 4.03
-20 5.79
-65536 5.79

[decipha]

those slopes x3600=

hs=95.61
ls=102.98

i wouldn't use those values with e85, i wouldnt use em period, and umore than likely will have to scale regardless but i guess its a good starting point, good as any, it of a stretch for my taste

the startup ol table doesn't have anything to do with injectors

[mat50ho]

No those are base vales cut 28% off for e85

[mat50ho]

I edited my first post to the correct hs,ls values.

[jestang]

How do I add the fn1360 patch to my a9l bin file? im sure its posted on here somewhere .... can someone link me to it? Thanks

[jestang]

matt - what is the purpose of the startup ol table? What am I changing there and why? thanks

[cgrey8]

The FN1360 patch files can be downloaded from the Tech section of EECAnalyzer.net. Inside the zipfile is a readme.txt file that guides you through the tune-patching process.

As for the Startup OL table (FN1306) that's an enrichment table for startup. During startup, the EEC is in Open Loop and follows FN1306 and Base OL Fuel Table (FN1307). The FN1306 is based on time. The most enrichment is done at startup and the longer the engine runs, the less added enrichment is applied.

With the FN1360 patch applied, once the EEC has entered Closed Loop and ECT is above the minimum for FN1360, then any OL conditions from that point on will be in FN1360 instead of FN1307. For people that Force OL, you'll need to activate FN1360 with no WRMEGO check (one of the options for Z_TABOFT). With the tune setup in this mode, FN1360 will be used as soon as the ECT is above ECTSTABL.

[jestang]

got the patch installed .... thanks

[mat50ho]

Did you try the valuses i posted?

[jestang]

Not yet .... wont have a chance to work on the car again until wednesday .... will post the results next thurs

[jestang]

finally got some time to work on the tune again ... made a lot of changes mentioned (and a few other) and got the car to idle pretty decent around 1000-1100 rpm .... I would like to get it down to 850 to 900 rpm .... However, to get it idle where I did, the throttle body screw was backed completely out (the car was idling on the iac valve alone) so I wasnt sure how to get it to idle any lower??

Also strapped the car on the dyno (dynojet 248) tonight to do some part throttle tuning and another problem arose. I tried to hold the car fairly steady around 3400 rpm (with the timing locked at 20 degrees)and dial the mass air curve in. However, when I did this, the car ran like pure crap .... jerking and such. Took a look at the datalog and my maf signal is all over the place. I'm talking like one line of the datalog shows 350 kg/hr and the very next 50 kg/hr. What could be causing this? A bad maf or ? I have the datalog and tune if anyone would like to see it. Thanks for the help.

[decipha]

check the bov make sure its not faulty

[jestang]

this was the first thing that came to mind when i recognized this problem .... the bov came with six washers that you use to shim the spring pressure but not much instruction on when to use them ... i was running only one of the washers at first but then I added 4 more to see if it made a difference .... no change

fyi - I am running a blow thru maf setup with the bov before the mass air meter and the car did not build any boost during my part throttle testing today

[jestang]

here is my datalog

[decipha]

whoa thats not good, good luck your gonna need it

sumtin' ain't rite'

[jestang]

Going to try replacing the maf with a stock maf to see if the problem goes away ... if that doesnt work then i dunno

want to look at my tune?

[decipha]

not needed the log tells the tale, swap out the meter and see where your at