[EDS50]

So I installed a brand new lamf in a straight 4" tube with a cone filter on the end befor the lmaf and I just cant get things dialed. I tried the stock lmaf xfer and tuning the fuel and the afr just wont come into an acceptable range I can manipulate the low slope to get the afr to hover around 12.8 - 15.5. but is very erratic in its behavior even during cruise. under decell the afr will drop to 11-12. If I set the injector settings to the motorsport values I have to reduce the stock xfer 20-25% to get the same afr behavior. This is all with adaptives disabled and forced open loop commanding 14.10 under 60 load and 12.5 60 load and up in my base open loop table. I just cant put my finger on whats going on. even tip in is super rich around 11 afr. What am I missing here? I thought this would be a super easy set up to tune.

[decipha]

set both your slopes to 30 and utilized decipha's 2nd law of dialing in a maf

16.00 1726.3
5.000 1726.300
4.500 1267.752
4.000 911.731
3.500 632.849
3.000 413.736
2.500 247.115
2.000 142.584
1.500 75.561
1.000 31.516
.500 9.081


adjust accordingly, you may find that up top it richens up a bunch

once your done compare your curve to the known curve

[EDS50]

set both your slopes to 30 and utilized decipha's 2nd law of dialing in a maf

16.00 1726.3
5.000 1726.300
4.500 1267.752
4.000 911.731
3.500 632.849
3.000 413.736
2.500 247.115
2.000 142.584
1.500 75.561
1.000 31.516
.500 9.081



adjust accordingly, you may find that up top it richens up a bunch

once your done compare your curve to the known curve

Do I need to interpolate everything in between or just enter the curve as is? I really was trying to do things differently the way you do that I always give you crap for and I just wasnt getting anywhere...lol...

[EDS50]

Also I know you use different offsets for the 30's than I do. Should I go back to the stock 19# offset? do I need to cut sarchg in half? Your curve is just about exactly what I am using now and my slopes are set to 30.2 even. Set up that way the car will start but will never idle because its so rich. I would have to lean out this curve 20% to get somewhat in the ball park.


15.9990 1726.727
4.9121 1726.727
4.6431 1462.490
4.4480 1290.768
4.2520 1135.204
4.0569 994.214
3.8611 865.898
3.6660 749.938
3.4700 645.384
3.2749 550.335
3.0791 465.107
2.8840 388.434
2.7371 336.474
2.5901 288.316
2.4441 244.910
2.2971 207.841
2.1509 175.524
2.0039 147.643
1.8569 122.930
1.7109 102.019
1.5640 83.326
1.4170 67.168
1.2710 53.228
1.1240 40.871
0.9780 30.416
0.8550 23.129
0.7329 16.158
0.6350 12.673
0.5620 10.772
0.0000 0.000

[decipha]

offset depends on the injectors, if its the fat body old school injectors then they share the same offset as the 19s, if its the newer skinny body injectors ford has a different offset for them


using the half volt increments, it makes it much easier and faster to dial in the maf, if she wants 20% out yank it

[EDS50]

offset depends on the injectors, if its the fat body old school injectors then they share the same offset as the 19s, if its the newer skinny body injectors ford has a different offset for them


using the half volt increments, it makes it much easier and faster to dial in the maf, if she wants 20% out yank it

Gotcha. Ill check it out. I am gonna use your curve. 30 for the slopes and the stock 19# offset settings and see how everything goes.

[NotchAbove]

Ed - Something just doesn't sound right. One thing that comes to mind is the potential for something else in the tune to be impacting things. Perhaps something that you modified to help with the C&L meter you had. Just a thought.

E-mail me over the tune your using, I'd like to take a look at it for you.

[EDS50]

Heres the tune with Deciphas recommendations.

12-3-11-lightningMAF.BIN

(56 KiB) Downloaded 838 times

[EDS50]

Ed - Something just doesn't sound right. One thing that comes to mind is the potential for something else in the tune to be impacting things. Perhaps something that you modified to help with the C&L meter you had. Just a thought.

E-mail me over the tune your using, I'd like to take a look at it for you.

I dunno. My tune is pretty much as basic as it gets. I thought it would be as simple as load the lmaf curve and adjust the slopes accordingly.

[85GT]

When I played around with offsets in my fuel calc spreadsheet, being off by .5 ms can move the wot afr anywhere from 11.3 to 12.1 if you were targeting 11.7 with 30lbs injectors. Being off the same amount at idle can put the afr anywhere from 12.9 to 17.0 when targeting 14.7.

IOW, offset is much more critical at small pw's. On decel, it would be even worse, if not using dfso.

The new 30's have higher offsets then the old fat ones for some reason. You'd think new technology would need less.

[EDS50]

When I played around with offsets in my fuel calc spreadsheet, being off by .5 ms can move the wot afr anywhere from 11.3 to 12.1 if you were targeting 11.7 with 30lbs injectors. Being off the same amount at idle can put the afr anywhere from 12.9 to 17.0 when targeting 14.7.

IOW, offset is much more critical at small pw's. On decel, it would be even worse, if not using dfso.

The new 30's have higher offsets then the old fat ones for some reason. You'd think new technology would need less.

Yeah I have dfso and transients disabled, all the fuel multipliers set to 1 and I was using the frpp offset settings. I am commanding 12.5 at wot and that seemed to be ok but the rest is just whack. While I am steady throttle cruising i can watch my afr bounce from 13.0 - 15.0. I know its in the tune somewhere because the c&l didnt do this. I havent used the current tune I posted until I get off work today.

[decipha]

When I played around with offsets in my fuel calc spreadsheet, being off by .5 ms can move the wot afr anywhere from 11.3 to 12.1 if you were targeting 11.7 with 30lbs injectors. Being off the same amount at idle can put the afr anywhere from 12.9 to 17.0 when targeting 14.7.

IOW, offset is much more critical at small pw's. On decel, it would be even worse, if not using dfso.

The new 30's have higher offsets then the old fat ones for some reason. You'd think new technology would need less.

thats due to the coil change, the newer skinny injectors suck IMO, they also take longer to open than the fat body injectors as witnessed by the increase in offset

[decipha]

here you go Ed, I changed a bunch of stuff to my liking, some of your values in there didn't look too efficient like the sharp drop in spark and the excess fueling, early injector firing, and mishap of idle control, give this a try and see if you like it better, i also re-enabled closed loop to let adaptives bring your fuel where it needs to be, it'll probably crank and idle like shit cuz your idle air needs to be dialed in, the old values didn't look like it was dialed in too well but thats just an assumption from the way the values looked

enjoy

[EDS50]

here you go Ed, I changed a bunch of stuff to my liking, some of your values in there didn't look too efficient like the sharp drop in spark and the excess fueling, early injector firing, and mishap of idle control, give this a try and see if you like it better, i also re-enabled closed loop to let adaptives bring your fuel where it needs to be, it'll probably crank and idle like shit cuz your idle air needs to be dialed in, the old values didn't look like it was dialed in too well but thats just an assumption from the way the values looked

enjoy

Thanks Mike. The idle was perfect in the car. I tried your original recommendations and the car wouldnt idle because it was just too rich. What I wound up doing was leaning out the curve 25%, raising the low slope to 37, lowering the breakpoint to like 1.5 or so and using the stock 19# offset. Ill give this one a try. I am not sure why the load tables are rescaled the way they are for a n/a car.

[85GT]

Lowering the bp will be the opposite of what you want. That will make the ecu use the low slope less and more of the high slope where the injector 'should' be smaller but yet it's not yet. Hence more then calculated fuel will be put in.

[EDS50]

Lowering the bp will be the opposite of what you want. That will make the ecu use the low slope less and more of the high slope where the injector 'should' be smaller but yet it's not yet. Hence more then calculated fuel will be put in.

I did that as an experiment to see how she behaved.

[85GT]

Understood. Just saying, try it in the other direction.

[EDS50]

Well gentelman I had a huge reply and I lost the webpage so I had to start over. I applied Mikes tune after clearing the kamrfs and I have to say I am quite impressed! The only issue I experienced was the idle falling too fast which I fixed quickly using fn824 and fn810; and that when in closed throttle or decel and upshifting or down shifting with the clutch in the afr goes rich into the high 10's low 11's but immediately bounces back when I let the clutch out. The car idles great and drives amazingly good. I included the logs in a zip. I hope both of them made it in there since I had a little wot up to 120mph on the hwy this morning. Let me know what you guys think so far and A BIG thanks to Mike for coming up with a pretty spot on tune to start with.

datalog_1.zip

(1.34 MiB) Downloaded 797 times

12-3-11a-decipha-ed.BIN

(56 KiB) Downloaded 829 times

[decipha]

your wideband is not configured right, its reading stoich at 13.2 afr, triple check your wideband values because something isn't right

i wouldn't lean her out at WOT just yet, get that wideband reading accurate first, you lean her out now and you may have issues later on down the road

i attached a new bin, i dialed in your idle air for you
now your throttle response should be greatly improved, also slowed down dashpot so the failsafe idle functions shouldn't be used

[EDS50]

your wideband is not configured right, its reading stoich at 13.2 afr, triple check your wideband values because something isn't right

i wouldn't lean her out at WOT just yet, get that wideband reading accurate first, you lean her out now and you may have issues later on down the road

i attached a new bin, i dialed in your idle air for you
now your throttle response should be greatly improved, also slowed down dashpot so the failsafe idle functions shouldn't be used

I have my wideband configured for 14.10 stoich for e-10 and the afr xfer is the same in BE. I am assuming your gonna ask me to set everything back to 14.7 which is not a problem. Just let me know.

[decipha]

e10 has a stoich near 14.1 not 13.2

if you look at the hego's switching the wideband is bouncing around 13.2ish

you can set the wideband for gasoline, lambda, e10, etc.. it won't make any difference, just be sure its reporting stoich correctly

stoich=13.2 IE lambda of 1, at wot you were demanding a lambda of .856 and you were getting 11.3ish

11.3/13.2=.856

looks like your fuel is pretty close, now you need to figure out why the wideband isn't reporting whats really going on

[EDS50]

e10 has a stoich near 14.1 not 13.2

if you look at the hego's switching the wideband is bouncing around 13.2ish

you can set the wideband for gasoline, lambda, e10, etc.. it won't make any difference, just be sure its reporting stoich correctly

stoich=13.2 IE lambda of 1, at wot you were demanding a lambda of .856 and you were getting 11.3ish

11.3/13.2=.856

looks like your fuel is pretty close, now you need to figure out why the wideband isn't reporting whats really going on

Not sure why or where the 13.2 would be coming from. Everything in my tune, BE, EA, Innovate Logworks and even the gauge is all configured for 14.10. Keep in mind if your running my logs through EA you have to change your settings from 14.7 to 14.10 for accuracy. The way I have everything set could be the discrepancy. Maybe the low slope being set to 30 could be the culprit? :dunno:

[NotchAbove]

I hate to be that guy, but I wish everyone would just talk and datalog things in terms of lambda. That is really the only way to think and it simplifies everything.

[decipha]

Not sure why or where the 13.2 would be coming from. Everything in my tune, BE, EA, Innovate Logworks and even the gauge is all configured for 14.10. Keep in mind if your running my logs through EA you have to change your settings from 14.7 to 14.10 for accuracy. The way I have everything set could be the discrepancy. Maybe the low slope being set to 30 could be the culprit? :dunno:

low slope is an injection multiplier, has nothing to do with the wideband reading

I don't use EA

while your crusing around what does the wideband read? it should be switching back and forth above and below 14.1, there is a minute chance it could be erroneous at idle

[EDS50]

Not sure why or where the 13.2 would be coming from. Everything in my tune, BE, EA, Innovate Logworks and even the gauge is all configured for 14.10. Keep in mind if your running my logs through EA you have to change your settings from 14.7 to 14.10 for accuracy. The way I have everything set could be the discrepancy. Maybe the low slope being set to 30 could be the culprit? :dunno:

low slope is an injection multiplier, has nothing to do with the wideband reading

I don't use EA

while your crusing around what does the wideband read? it should be switching back and forth above and below 14.1, there is a minute chance it could be erroneous at idle

When I am cruising the afr is richer than the lambses. The lambses seem to be good. As soon as I go closed throttle decel the afr slams rich 10.0-11.0 which makes the transition back into the throttle rough. While I am cruising the afr seems to level out close to commanded lambses and does bounce around more than it should be +/- 1.0 afr of 14.10 stoich. Idle was horrible since it is overshooting dsdrpm because the afr is so rich and is dropping too fast. I adjusted that to where the car likes to be. WOT was rich as expected but at commanded afr so I am not worried about wot. Idle I have a handle on and I am going to lean out the maf curve in the idle volts to get her where she needs to be. As far as the closed throttle afr that is my only stumbling block and dont know why its going so bad rich. The car makes power which I am happy with. Heres the log.

datalog -2.zip

(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 613 times

[decipha]

your wideband still isn't reading right, you need to get that wideband situated before you start adjusting fuel, right now there no telling where she's really at.

i adjusted transients a tad for you as well as adjust the maf curve a tad so be sure you clear kams, i tightened up adaptives as well

yeah she was a tad rich up top wideband reported 11.3 going down to 10.8, that correlates to
.856-.818 that comes out to 12.0 AFR-11.5 AFR for e10 or 12.5-12 AFR for gasoline

keep in mind your demanding 12.5 e10 / 13 gasoline, i adjust the curve accordingly

now get your wideband situated before you break something, here's an updated bin, i wouldn't beat on her with this UNTIL you get that wideband reporting correctly, when the lambses are jumping above and below the e10 stoich afr of ~14.1 you have it set for, the wideband should be doing the same

i kicked up dashpot a crap load, if this doesn't give you cruise control it should resolve your stalling issues, your going to have to dial in dashpot on your own

here you go, enjoy

[EDS50]

your wideband still isn't reading right, you need to get that wideband situated before you start adjusting fuel, right now there no telling where she's really at.

i adjusted transients a tad for you as well as adjust the maf curve a tad so be sure you clear kams, i tightened up adaptives as well

yeah she was a tad rich up top wideband reported 11.3 going down to 10.8, that correlates to
.856-.818 that comes out to 12.0 AFR-11.5 AFR for e10 or 12.5-12 AFR for gasoline

keep in mind your demanding 12.5 e10 / 13 gasoline, i adjust the curve accordingly

now get your wideband situated before you break something, here's an updated bin, i wouldn't beat on her with this UNTIL you get that wideband reporting correctly, when the lambses are jumping above and below the e10 stoich afr of ~14.1 you have it set for, the wideband should be doing the same

i kicked up dashpot a crap load, if this doesn't give you cruise control it should resolve your stalling issues, your going to have to dial in dashpot on your own

here you go, enjoy

I am confident there is nothing wrong with the wideband, the sensor or its settings. Just for shits and giggles I can open air recalibrate it but I am just going to set everything wideband wise back to its default and set everything lambda ( for those complainers out there ) including the afr xfer in BE. I will post up a datalog when I get to work.

[EDS50]

Mike, Im gonna run with your latest tune. Im gonna dial in the idle airflow and see where things go after I calibrate my wideband and set everything to 14.7. I just cant get my head wrapped around lambda readings. I get frustrated and change it back to read afr...lol...

[NotchAbove]

Mike, Im gonna run with your latest tune. Im gonna dial in the idle airflow and see where things go after I calibrate my wideband and set everything to 14.7. I just cant get my head wrapped around lambda readings. I get frustrated and change it back to read afr...lol...

Stoich is 1 no matter what type of fuel your using, easy as that.

So at idle and cruise the car should hover around 1.

At WOT you want to see it drop to .86 (12.6) - .89 (13.0).

Its much easier to monitor in my opinion, and you never have to think about what type of gas DID I really get.

[NotchAbove]

The other thing in your tune that I didn't like, but I'm not sure if its part of this AFR problem is that you have Gas Type selected at E10 (if I remember correctly). I don't know what changing that scalar does, but I hope that by changing this, and all other Afr related items that you didn't double dip into this.