[soul]

Long post and I apologize but I've hit the end of the road here. I'm going to get a QH soon, money has been scarce(wife had a long hospital stay and just now getting back on feet)

Ok here is the details on my Setup
Coast High Performance 331 kit 28oz balance, Comp XE264HR14 cam, 58cc 185 afr heads, 1.7 roller rockers Full 1 5/8 primary equal length headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, Full manual reverse VB c4, Add Mass Flo setup to top and here is where the problems started. The o2 sensors are in the back cyclindar's tube of the headers, close to the collector.

It ran fine on carb, swapped over and not it doesn't want to start unless push the pedal about half way down, then she chokes to life. It doesn't back fire during start and I've verified the timing several times. During Idle it won't idle unless you push the pedal down some, if you take the spout out it will idle fine for awhile then it will start reving up and down a couple hundred rpm dipping below 800 and dying. This may take a couple mins or be instant.

I don't have QH yet and their tech line sucks. I can post a nasty email chain I had with them about how I'm retarded for working during their tech hours. I also took off 3 days and called their tech and was told I would be called back and that didn't happen either.

My main question is with the symptoms going on what should I check? Obviously I need to check codes, I believe I did last time I was down but I live 150 miles from my car (took new job and life is getting in the way) It has been almost a year since I put this on and hasn't ran.

[cgrey8]

...I'm going to get a QH soon...

The faster, the better. Without the ability to tinker with the tune and see feedback via datalogging, it's difficult to diagnose exactly what does and doesn't work. Before purchasing, you will want to verify that your MassFlo EEC is an A9L or some variant. I've never heard of one not being, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

...Coast High Performance 331 kit 28oz balance, Comp XE264HR14 cam, 58cc 185 afr heads, 1.7 roller rockers Full 1 5/8 primary equal length headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, Full manual reverse VB c4,...

Very nice combination. That should prove to be an extremely streetable combination with a great idle and lots of power...for an N/A engine.

...Add Mass Flo setup to top and here is where the problems started...

Most of the MassFlo setups I'm familiar with are for big engines or older engines that never were EFI like 351Cs or 427s. For a 331, what is it they gave you for an intake? I certainly hope it wasn't a stock GT upper/lower.

...The o2 sensors are in the back cyclindar's tube of the headers, close to the collector...

It's odd they have the HEGOs in a pipe, not in the collector. I'm not sure I like that, but before I went worrying on that aspect, 1st get the engine running.

...It ran fine on carb, swapped over and now it doesn't want to start unless push the pedal about half way down, then she chokes to life. It doesn't back fire during start and I've verified the timing several times. During Idle it won't idle unless you push the pedal down some, if you take the spout out it will idle fine for awhile then it will start reving up and down a couple hundred rpm dipping below 800 and dying. This may take a couple mins or be instant...

Verified timing to be what? And under what conditions? When you are able to get it to come to life, I'm curious what the spark advance is then or is it badly retarded? When I 1st got my engine running in the truck, it fired up but ran and reved like crap until I realized the distributor was badly retarded. Once I advanced it up a bit, it came to life and purred. What concerns me here is that you can get it to run with the SPOUT pulled and when pulled, presumably the timing is 10BTDC and stable, not jumping around like there's something busted in the dizzy.

...My main question is with the symptoms going on what should I check?...

With the setup you got and at the mercy of the MassFlo idiots that can't help you, my guess is you aren't going to be able to do much with this until you get a QH in there and start datalogging with it so you can get some better information. And while it isn't absolutely 100% necessary, it would help if you also had a Wideband O2 you could use to know exactly what your idle AFRs are. Idle hunt with the SPOUT pulled is usually caused by a rich mix. Without datalogging, it's difficult to see/know why the EEC isn't correcting for this or if it is even trying. Datalogging will give you the ability to see the HEGO voltages, the Open/Closed Loop fueling status, and what LAMBSEs (AFRs) the EEC is trying to command. Without datalogging, the best we can do is assume the MassFlo tune is good and diagnose mechanical problems. Unfortunately, experience from other MassFlo owners here on the site is you can't trust their tune to be worth anything.

[soul]

I tried inserting the pics directly but was to big. Let me know if links don't worky. I included a vid of the idle with carb to prove it ran before lol. I can't really get a vid of the new symptoms as manning gas pedal and phone at same time is hard.

Intake:

Its a victor jr intake with injectors and a 1000cfm tb on top. Pic below

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=aA1 ... h4l5k2TGxc

O2 placement:

Its like an inch from the collector, right by the bellhousing. If you look below you can see the bung, this is back from when we first got it together, excuse the mess of wires

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=bB6 ... h4l5k2TGxc

Timing: I believe it is 10 degrees according to Mass Flo's directions.
Been about 6 months since I got to work on it. Going down this weekend again to check it out.

Fuel Pressure: 38 lbs vac unhooked. Its fed by a -8 braided line form a walbro 255 and a -6an return.

here is an idle vid from when it was carbed again this was like day 1 after getting it together.

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=bB6 ... h4l5k2TGxc

[soul]

Btw side note, it ran a mid 7 in 1/8th mile on street tires and me with a 1.5 reaction. First time at track, it ran a 9 something previously, did some tuning and put some non bald tires on it and nailed the 7 whatever.

[cgrey8]

Here's possibly a dumb question...why did you move from carb to EFI? Fuel economy? Hoping for more power? Need to pass emissions? Or you just wanted something a bit more high tech than jets, metering rods, and mechanical advance?

As for the intake, that looks just like all the other MassFlo intakes I've ever seen. I just never would've guessed they would bother making their own intake for an engine as common as the 302 or 351w given there are so many of them in both production and aftermarket that already have EFI support with factory components. This also begs the same question of you. Why didn't you just use stock EFI equipment to migrate to EFI?

Also looking through the pics, I didn't notice if there was a MAF sensor in the kit or if the MAF is integrated into the Throttlebody. Is there any chance you know the MAF curve and Injector Parameters of the injectors they supplied you with? If so, great. If not, then you might consider pulling the chip that's installed on your EEC and sending it to someone that can read the tune out for you and email you the tune. I suspect there's a person or two that would read the tune for you, email you the tune, and accept the chip itself as payment to be reburned and used somewhere else (assuming you didn't want the chip back). Having their tune would tell you info like the MAF curve and Injector parameters as MassFlo knows them to be. It might also give you some insight into exactly what all they were trying to do in the tune. Some of that info might be inciteful. Although the last MassFlo tune I looked at was rather unremarkable. If you remind me, I'll search around and see if I can find it and post it up here. There's a very good chance that tune has the same exact info that yours does since it was equally as useful for the guy that posted it as your tune is for you.

[soul]

Wanted fuel economy and to have something mordern. The MAF is a aluminum piece that sits on top of the throttle body. I don't have a pic of it handy.

The intake says mass flo on it, but I was told it is a victor jr intake made for them. If that is true or not I'm not sure. But it resembles it.

Why didn't I just use stock parts?
Hell I don't know, kicking my self now. Was scared of turning and Mass Flo pillow talked me into the deal.

As for the chip being read. I'd do that then replace it with the QH right? and are there individuals who do this or a company? Ecu is a repackaged A9L (has big sticker saying that on it)

Ya if you could find that persons tune that would be awesome. i could start tinkering in it and see whats what.

[cgrey8]

Wanted fuel economy and to have something mordern. The MAF is a aluminum piece that sits on top of the throttle body. I don't have a pic of it handy...

Nice to know.

...As for the chip being read. I'd do that then replace it with the QH right?...

That's correct.

...and are there individuals who do this or a company?...

Individuals or individuals that own their own dyno tuning company. The hardware to read chips is for sale from Moates.net and isn't terribly expensive for people that need to do it on a regular basis. But it is a bit much for 1-timers that don't need to do it but once.

...Ya if you could find that persons tune that would be awesome. i could start tinkering in it and see whats what.

Found it:

mass-flo tune for 393cid.bin

[soul]

Alright have the A9L bin and the gufb strat, got BE. Poking around to see what if I can understand some stuff. Reading the FAQ here and the entire Help directory from BE.

[cgrey8]

BE's helpfiles are useful, but not particularly where I would focus right now. It's EA's helpfiles that will be the most meaningful. They contain a lot of insight into tuning theory as well as how to use EA. Each tab in EA has it's own help buttons, some tabs have multiple help buttons, each that pull up different help topics depending on what the area of the tab is intended for. Also explore around on other buttons as some buttons launch popup windows that also have their own help buttons. Read them all.

[soul]

EA = EEC analyzer?

[85GT]

Yes

[soul]

Is there a template for A9L (GUFB) to apply 36 lb injectors? I saw there was some for 24lbs and 30lbs on the site. I'll search some and see what I can find. I just thought some one might have it saved.

[soul]

Here is a pic of the maf btw

[soul]

Update
Messed with it today, verified 40psi fuel pressure unhooked vac.
Timing 10* according to mass flo's directions
Idle set after warm up

Still doesn't run. It floods on prime (before cranking), have to throw more volts to starter with battery charger set to 40amp start to get it to fire first time, or crank it to death with throttle depressed and then it will choke to life. To keep it running you have to have the throttle depressed. While it is running you can get it to run if you keep it around 1500-2000 sometimes lower but it may choke out and die. Black soot lines the exhaust tip but no smoke, can tell it is rich. Spout connected it misses out and shakes entire car. Spout out runs much smoother.

Calling mass flo Monday to see if they will try to retune the stupid thing before I drop some money I don't have to fix a 3k bolt in no tunning solution.

[decipha]

it cant possibly spray the injectors without the pip thus can't flood on prime, unless its getting a stray signal from the pip input which i've never seen before

what is a possibilty is a corrupt tune, i've seen that turn the injectors on before


in any case, hold the pedal to the floor during crank to shut off the injectors

[soul]

Ya that is how I've been getting it to start. All I know is that if you turn the key on, it primes for start right? If it doesn't fire off right then it will not start.

[soul]

btw code 11 which is all clear. i took a vid of it running will try to get that up here

[decipha]

it primes the pump for 1024ms, but thats just to build fuel pressure, the injectors don't fire until the tfi gives pips to the ecu

[cgrey8]

That is unless there's a leaky injector...

[soul]

I sent an email to them, tried calling them 5 times yesterday and no answer, surprise surpirise. Guess closed for easter. see what I hear back.

[soul]

Called mass flo again today finally got a response. Let me know if this is BS or not

http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... -4307m.pdf

Above is my fuel reg. They say I have it installed wrong.
I have a -8 an feed from my tank going to the feed side of the reg. From another port on the reg (that says to supply gas to carbs) I have a -8 going to the fuel rail.
A -6 an return on the bottom.

I was told It should go from gas tank to rail to reg. and that how I have it isn't regulating it. I think this is bs because I put a gauge on one of the extra ports it shows 40 psi and drops with vacuum.

So should I spend 200 dollars extra to put it as they say or is this just a load of bs?

[Disney Lincoln]

Lines should go from the fuel pump to the fuel rails. Then to the inlet side of the regulator, then out of the regulator back to the tank.

[cgrey8]

I agree, that's how the lines should typically go. However if you blocked off the return side of your rail or use a returnless rail, and just T-ed in the regulator into the supply line going to the rail, and plumbed the return back to the tank directly to the regulator, that should also work. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what Explorer 5.0Ls did when they converted from return line to returnless. What I don't remember is if they ran a vacuum line to the regulator or just compensated for the fact that the differential pressure on the injectors was not constant making the Injector Slope/BP values variable with the engine vacuum.

[soul]

My setup is fuel line into reg, out of reg into fuel line and t'd to feed both rails then they terminate. The return is at the reg. I'll try the new setup and see what it takes. Will most likely be a couple weeks. If this is the cause I'll totally write them "I'm sorry for saying your stupid" and eat some crow.

Although I still stand by that their customer service is balls. Called them 10 times with promises of call backs and called all freaking day Monday and left them a voice mail with no return call.

[351C4vEEC]

Here is how mine is setup.



Feed supply goes into the regulator then I have the regulator hooked directly to the back of the Pass side rail. There is a fuel line connecting the two rails at the front. I then tied the rear of the drivers side rail back into the regulator. No problems so far.

[bender460]

Lines should go from the fuel pump to the fuel rails. Then to the inlet side of the regulator, then out of the regulator back to the tank.

X2.. IMO that's the only proper way when using a return line.

[soul]

Well just made some cash from selling a 2.3 bellhousing. Looks like it is being turned into fuel line and I'll re-route. Will try to get done sooner than later. I appreciate all the feed back and help. Stay tuned.

[bender460]

While you are at it you should plumb in a fuel pressure gauge. Mount it between your fuel rails and regulator. I prefer to not to have the gauge on the engine. Probably doesn't matter much. But if you were to mount on the engine use a liquid filled gauge. On a ruff idling engine the needle can become very bouncy.

My particular regulator has a 1/8 NPT outlet just for a gauge. Maybe your also??

[351C4vEEC]

Lines should go from the fuel pump to the fuel rails. Then to the inlet side of the regulator, then out of the regulator back to the tank.

X2.. IMO that's the only proper way when using a return line.

After reading that I went out and swapped my setup over to the same way. It seems to make the most sense.

[soul]

My reg has 3 ports that will be unused in this setup, all of which can be used as a gauge port.