[panabax]

Here is my situation: I have a '96 full size Bronco with a 351W and E4OD. It is OBDII running a TIN3 computer and AGANF strategy. I have mounted an Eaton M112 supercharger from an '04 lightning on top. Tuning the engine and tranny is accomplished with a Mongoose cable and BE. However, in order to keep everything under the hood, I had to delete the TFI distributor. I replaced the 4 tit misfire sensor wheel with a 36-1 wheel from a '97 Explorer and run the timing with an EDIS-8 module controlled by a Megajolt. (Even though the TIN3 is EECV, the code, and probably hardware too, to run the EDIS is not present) The whole thing works and plays together very well and adjusting the timing with the Megajolt is a real breeze.

Still, I would like to explore the possibility of controlling everything with a single factory PCM. I have searched high and low and can't find an application which included both EDIS and an E4OD. The 5.0 Explorer computer is EDIS, but uses a 4R70W. Those that know have waived me off of trying to control the E4OD with the 4R70W PCM.

However, it occurred to me that engine management may very well be more generic that transmission management. There are a few examples of EDIS ignitions and either E4OD or 4R100 trannies (97-98 F150, 97-03 Expedition). Of course these trucks use either a 4.6 or 5.4 Modular engine. So the question is, how hard would it be to control a 351W with a PCM designed for a 5.4 Modular?

I am mindful of the adage, if it works don't fix it, and it currently works. Still I'd like to know what the options are. Megasquirt is not a good option for me because I need to maintain the OBDII functionality for annual emissions testing.

TIA,

Baxter

[Paulie]

There is no reason you can't use a PCM designed for a modular for a pushrod engine, several people have done it. Just make sure whatever PCM you choose has the full strategy available for BE.

[panabax]

Perfect. I will start looking for specific strategies/applications.

Thanks,

Baxter

[Stengun]

Howdy Baxter,

I'm using an EEC-V ecu from a '97 T-bird with CDAN4 ( same as the 96-97 4.6 Mustang GT) on a 414ci stroker 351W.

I have SailorBob's def. file and here's a list of the Trans strategy listed:
None
SIL
A4LD
AXOD
C6E4 (E4OD)
A4LD-E
FAX-4
AOD-4 (AOD-I)
4EAT
CD4E

Since the CDAN4 is used in a wide range of vehicles, Crown Vic, Town Cars, V-6 & V-8 Mustang and T-birds and with how detailed SailorBob's def file is I do not see a reason why it would not control your engine and trans based on my experience.

There are so many settings for the transmission that can be adjusted or changed for different automatic transmission surely it can be adjusted or "tuned" to work with your combo.

Just my $.02 and your mileage MAY vary.

If you go the EEC-V CDAN4 route I wold use an ecu from a '96-'97 V-8 T-bird and combine your wiring harness with one from a '96-'97 4.6 V-8 for the crank and cam position sensors and the coil packs.

HTH

Paul

[panabax]

Very good information. Thank you.

[Jman]

I'm looking for a EECV with the same properties as you. I also have a Bronco project. Same 351/E4OD combo just no supercharger. What have you found ??? I would like to go distributorless as we'll. Any luck finding a supported strategy ???

Thank you
J.W.S.

[panabax]

I think the best strategy option would be ALAP2 from a 97 F-150. It should be easy to obtain at the pick-n-pull yards. The '97 had the E4OD as an option so it should be fully supported in the strategy file. However, I don't know who supports that strategy. I checked with Sailor Bob and he does not. I suspect Pop's Racing does, but I sent Adam an email on the subject and he has not gotten back to me.

Right now, I am running distributorless with an EDIS-8 module and a Megajolt. I think there are a couple of potential advantages to the Megajolt.

No. 1, it calculates load based on manifold pressure, so when I am under boost, there is no mistake and it is pulling timing. That's not an issue for you if you are going to run NA, but it is probably a better way to measure engine load (it can also use TPS, but I prefer manifold pressure).

No. 2, timing is pulled from a single table with only one modifier. Some people might think this is a downside, but not me. I have a single table that has load on one axis and RPM on the other. Both axis are fully scalable. The modifier is customizable. I am using intake temp to modify timing. I have an intercooler, so if it fails and my intake temps skyrocket, the Megajolt will start pulling timing. It can also set off an idiot light if I take the time to set it up.

The only real "weird" aspect of the setup is I still have to run a portion of my distributor. Basically, I have a stock distributor with no rotor or cap. It does have the hall effect sensor to establish camshaft position for the SEFI. Unfortunately, with AGANF you can't run a modified Explorer camshaft sensor because it is a half moon shape since it just identifies cylinder 1. On computers running the TFI distributor they are looking for a "signature pip" which means the cylinder 1 vane on the hall effect sensor is more narrow that the other 7. It needs all eight because it is supposed to be firing all cylinders as well. Of course, I don't need to fire the cylinders, just the SEFI, but signature pip is how AGANF does it. I have been talking to Bill Price at Price Motorsports. He makes a camshaft sensor for the 351W for use with EDIS, but it is the half moon variety. I have one and have no current use for it :-( since it won't work with my PCM. I have him looking into making a new shaft with the 8 vane signature pip for retro applications like this. If I go that route, I may abandon the idea of using a different computer. If that doesn't pan out, I may start calling Adam to find out if he has the ALAP2 strategy and how well supported it is.

I will let you know what I find out on either front. Regardless of the direction you go, distributorless is a good deal. The timing is rock solid. Also, on the AGANF strategy, it is looking for a 4 point crank sensor for misfire detection. This sensor wheel is replaced by a 36-1 wheel from a 5.0 EDIS system, so you will need to shut off the misfire monitoring and disable the P code associated with that circuit to keep the CEL from coming on. Adam's AGANF strategy file will do all of that perfectly. Contact Pop's Racing if you need that file.

Good luck,

Baxter

[Stengun]

Howdy Jman,

Since your going NA and want distributorless ignition I would go with the EEC-V w/ CDAN4 strat.

SailorBob's def file has been fully "cracked" and with Decipha's ZXA5 base tune it fairly simple to get your combo up and running.

The EEC-V ecu w/ CDAN4 are the ones that are used by the '96-'97 Mustang GT and were also used in '96-'97 Crown Vic, T-Cars, T-bird/Cougar and can be found at most u-pull-it/pick-n-pull type junkyards for under $40.00.

The best thing about the EEC-V is that edis is already built into the ecu and you do not need a additional module to use edis.

I'm running the EEC-V/CDAN4 on a stroker 351W in a FFR Spyder GT and Shaker666 is running one on a stroker 351 in a '71 Mach 1.

If you have any questions just ask.

HTH

Paul

[panabax]

I see one potential and one almost certain problem with the CDAN4 in a Bronco application.

First, I am led to believe that just because the E4OD is in the "list" of transmission choices doesn't mean the PCM will actually control it. I have no way of knowing this one way or the other, but I would investigate this as I don't think the E4OD was an option with any of the cars that used this strategy.

Second, the AGANF strategy actually supports the use of 4 wheel drive low and modifying the shift points when in low mode. Typically, the E4OD will shift based upon throttle position and speed. Obviously that doesn't work in 4WD Low, so it changes to shifting based solely on RPM. I assume, but do not know, that the ALAP2 strategy will support 4WD low since the same strategy was used for both 2WD and 4WD trucks.

YMMV.

Let me know what you do and how it works.

Baxter

[Jman]

I've been collecting parts for a while and have a small pile of EECVs. My hope is to be able to sell some of it when I decide what I'm keeping.

1. ALAPF cal GZA3 hardware code MLC-211 from 1997 Expedition
2. ALAPI cal GZA4 hardware code MLC-211 from 1997 Expedition
3. MPAL6 cal CPY3 hardware code MLC-496A from 2000 gas Superduty
4. CDAN4 cal YCL3 hardware code ML2-333 from 1996 Crown Vic
5. AGANF cal ADA3 hardware code ML1-441 from 1996 F series truck (this truck had 4R70W)

After I get this Bronco going I might try to EECV my 1978 Dodge 440 motor home. I emailed Mike Glover at TwEECer and he said ALAPF, ALAPI, and MPAL6 are supported with their product. I wonder how hard it would be to learn to use. I have no tuning experience yet. I am Computer savy and a quick learner in general.

What if I run into PATS issues with one of these EECVs is there a way to shut that off. Can I use the the PATS if I put the sensor around the ign lock? Can I sniff a key code out of the computer or out of a new key somehow?

Thanks
J.W.S.

[panabax]

I'm not sure on the PATS, but I think if you stay at 1997 or earlier you will avoid it. I know it's definitely NOT in the AGANF from 1996 (my Bronco strategy).

The hardware code MLC-211 from the two expeditions is the same hardware code used with the ALAP2 strategy. Reach out to Adam at Pop's Racing or Mike Glover and see if either supports that strategy. You should be able to program that ECU with the factory ALAP2 strategy. I had no prior tuning experience either but am also computer savvy (and mechanically inclined). I got my supercharged Bronco up and running with EDIS with very little trouble. You will need a wideband O2 sensor to tune it yourself, but you will be glad you did.

It is a little more pricey, but I recommend the Mongoose Pro and Binary Editor for tuning through the OBDII port. It was, unfortunately, not my first purchase, but it has proven the best so far.

If you want to use the AGANF strategy, I have a copy of SCT Pro Racer and the dongle linked to that strategy that I'd make you a great deal on along with an SCT Touch Screen Extreme to flash the ECU. Just drop me a PM if you are interested. The strategy is well supported by SCT but not as well supported as Adam's version of that strategy file.

Baxter

[LeadHead]

E4ODs have a "Coast Clutch" that the AOD-E/4R70W do not have. I can't imagine the 4R70 computers would have the circuit/driver for the coast clutch, and even if they do, who knows what pin it would be on?

[decipha]

The MPAL6 would be your best bet out of all those ecu's

thats what I had in my old work truck

[Jman]

How would get past PATS? I would actually like to use it if I could. At some point the Bronco will be nice enough to steal.

[decipha]

lol

pats isnt enabled in the f250 series 2 valve trucks

if you want to enable pats just set the switch to 0 and get yourself a pats module and cluster that has your category pats type, then simply do the 45 minute/3 key cycle learn and pats should be good to go... possibly

[Jman]

That's great I would want to just get it going first, then maybe later try extra side projects with it.

Thanks
J.W.S.

[Jman]

I've been trying to determine what type of cam sensor will work on the MPAL6. I've noticed just from pictures on older 5.4 engines there is a rectangular bump on the driver side cam gear facing forward. I think that would be part of the cam sensing for that engine. So I'm wondering if the half moon distributor hole type sensor will work for me. On the 5.4 nothing is sensing until bump comes around. on the 302 Explorer with half moon about half the time nothing and about half the time vane comes around.

Are they only looking at rising edge or falling edge?

Is the half moon vane only that wide for strength?

I read you can switch the top of the distributor hole type sensor to be variable reluctance or hall effect.
I also thought could I have a piece of key stock tig welded to my cam gear and weld a sensor bung into my chain cover?

Thanks
J.W.S.

[panabax]

I'm pretty sure the PCM is simply looking for the leading edge of the cam sensor which, on the 5.0 Explorers, is supposed to occur at 10* BTDC while cylinder 1 is in the compression stroke. Whether you could use the Explorer sensor "as is" or not, I do not know. Worse case scenario, it seems like you could take the Explorer sensor and cut off the back 3/4 of the half moon and mimic the 5.4 sensor pretty well. After all, the cam sensor is just used for SEFI timing which is not nearly as critical as ignition timing.

On a side note, I am working with Bill Price (Price Motorsports) to make a camshaft sensor for use on a 351W with the original PCM + a Megajolt. The Megajolt uses the 36-1 sensor and needs no camshaft input. The factory PCM needs to see signature PIP for SEFI. He is going to make a camshaft sensor using the Explorer electronics but utilizing an 8 vane cup with one vane more narrow to trigger the signature PIP. I have found the Megajolt to be a very good (and affordable) EDIS solution.

Good luck.

Baxter

[harold]

:wtf: The Explorers used both Hall Effect and VR sensors for the cam sync. I believe the switch was in '99, but I'd have to look to verify.

The Hall Effect units synchronize on cylinders 1 and 6 using the rising and falling edges of the signal, whereas the VR units only synchronize on cylinder 1 using the falling edge of the signal. In CDAN4, it looks for the VR sensor falling edge at 22.5° ATDC and the Hall Effect sensor at 26° ATDC. You know, just to make it simple.

In the Explorers, it appears from the tool I've got that it looks for the falling edge of the hall effect signal maybe 10° BTDC, but I haven't looked at the strategy document for that, I've only set mine using the tool. That appears to be what the A9L wants when set up with EDIS.

[Stengun]

Howdy,

. In CDAN4, it looks for the VR sensor falling edge at 22.5° ATDC and the Hall Effect sensor at 26° ATDC. You know, just to make it simple.

Actually the V-8 CDAN4 stat uses the VR sensor and the signal is produced at 26° ATDC, not 22.5.

The V-6 CDAN4 uses a Hall Effect sensor and I'm not sure when it's produced.

Even though there's a "switch" that allows you to select either a HE signal or a VR signal, I never could get the HE signal to do anything.

HTH

Paul

[harold]

I should have known better than try to quote those off the top of my head. I could have sworn it was 26° for the HE and 22.5° for the VR. I'll have to read it again when I get home. Both of the examples in the document are for a V6. Were you running the Ford plug when you tried HE or were you using an aftermarket one?

[harold]

When Hall CID hardware is present the signal has a 50 percent duty cycle and the
low-to-high transition is positioned at a nominal 26 degrees (crank) ATDC for
cylinder #1. With VRS CID hardware present the high-to-low transition of the
signal is positioned at a nominal 22.5 degrees (crank) ATDC for cylinder #1.

For a Hall system, the CID signal is processed when either a low-to-high or
high-to-low transition is recognized. For a VRS system processing only
occurs after recognition of a high-to-low transition. Regardless of which
system is employed, processing involves synchronizing the SYNC_CTR to the CID
signal.

...

If the CID signal is lost, the value of SYNC_CTR will become greater than
NUMCYL after the engine cycle (720 degrees crank) is completed. The strategy
executed during the PIP interrupt checks if the CID signal is lost by
determining if SYNC_CTR is greater than NUMCYL. If a CID signal is not seen
for two cycles (1440 degrees) of the engine, the system will assume CID
failure and revert to injector on-edge timing at the nearest PIP edge.

Looks like high-low transition at 22.5 degrees ATDC for the VRS and low-high transition 26 degrees ATDC for the HE.

Obviously, that's no guarantee it didn't change, but I don't have a CDAN4 document and I've been lead to believe the stuff in the CDAN2 document is still valid.

I'll be swapping to CDAN4 this winter and will be keeping my Ford HE plug and sensor unless I can't make it work. I really am curious about which cam sync plug you used, though. I know someone mentioned an aftermarket hall effect unit and looking at pictures of the thing it was clear from the shape of the rotor why it wouldn't work. The thing wasn't the right shape to produce the right signal. Obviously if you were using a Ford one, that wouldn't be the case.

[Stengun]

Howdy Harold,

I've never looked at the CDAN2 document.

The way I came up with the 26 degrees ATDC was based on when the link on the timing chain passed the cam position sensor's VR sensor.

The cam sensor I used was an MSD cam sync plug and it produces a Hall Effect signal. I'm a wannabe shadetree machinist so I modified the cam sync plug to produce a VR signal by using a '97 4.6 V-8's cam position sensor. Nothing fancy but it works. Here's a pic:


Either the signal wasn't compatible with the CDAN4 strat or, which I believe is the case, the V-8 EEC-V ecu w/ CDAN4 strat doesn't have the hardware to use the HE signal.

I couldn't get it to work and neither could Shaker666 who's also running a 351W stroker using an EEC-V ecu w/ CDAN4 strat.

Paul

[Jman]

Does that CDAN2 doc have a glossary to help me understand what NUMCYL and SYNC_CTR mean? I would like to read through that doc.

I'm guessing SNYC_CTR is what tells the EEC where number one combustion should be but 26 or 22.5 degrees late ??? Now the ECC can establish NUMCYL, prepare for ignition on the next cylinder in the firing order and use the crank shaft sensor for ignition timing the rest of the time the engine is running ??? Now the SYNC_CTR is used for fuel injector timing only ???

Am I anywhere close to understanding???

The CDAN2 doc shows up in the tech docs but I get a message it does not exist anymore when I try to open it. Does anyone know where I can get a copy

Thanks
J.W.S.

[harold]

Does that CDAN2 doc have a glossary to help me understand what NUMCYL and SYNC_CTR mean? I would like to read through that doc.

I'm guessing SNYC_CTR is what tells the EEC where number one combustion should be but 26 or 22.5 degrees late ??? Now the ECC can establish NUMCYL, prepare for ignition on the next cylinder in the firing order and use the crank shaft sensor for ignition timing the rest of the time the engine is running ??? Now the SYNC_CTR is used for fuel injector timing only ???

Am I anywhere close to understanding???

The CDAN2 doc shows up in the tech docs but I get a message it does not exist anymore when I try to open it. Does anyone know where I can get a copy
:

It was posted here before everything got lost. I keep losing the link I have to it. I was going to attach it, but the forum says it's too big. I'll put it somewhere and post a link later.

Each section has a description of what they're discussing. NUMCYL is the number of cylinders in the engine and SYNC_CTR is just incremented as each cylinder fires. The cylinder 1 CID signal resets SYNC_CTR. With a VR sensor, it only looks for that since the ones set up for the VR sensor only have a single tine. With an HE sensor, it resets at cylinder 1 and syncs 360 degrees off of cylinder 1 (cylinder 6 on a V8). If it doesn't sync for 2 full cycles of the engine (1440 degrees), it runs in batch fire mode.

The cam sensor I used was an MSD cam sync plug and it produces a Hall Effect signal. I'm a wannabe shadetree machinist so I modified the cam sync plug to produce a VR signal by using a '97 4.6 V-8's cam position sensor. Nothing fancy but it works. Here's a pic:


Either the signal wasn't compatible with the CDAN4 strat or, which I believe is the case, the V-8 EEC-V ecu w/ CDAN4 strat doesn't have the hardware to use the HE signal.

I'm much more willing to believe the signal wasn't any good. There's a thread at YellowBullet where they discuss the bad signal the MSD unit produces. They're using it on a BigStuff 3 system, but one of the guys scoped it out and said he couldn't get a clean square wave from it. The Ford HE uses a 50% DC square wave and looks for the rising and falling edges of that wave to sync. If you get a bunch of noise in there, it's not going to work. The VR only looks for the falling edge, so maybe it can handle a crappy waveform better.

I couldn't get it to work and neither could Shaker666 who's also running a 351W stroker using an EEC-V ecu w/ CDAN4 strat.

Are you sure he couldn't get the HE to work? I thought he never tried an HE one because his harness was already wired for VR. He spent a lot of time looking for how to set the plug, but I don't think he ever wired in an HE sensor.

[Stengun]

Howdy Harold,

You could be right concerning Shaker. I remember we talked about it a lot when he was trying to build his combo.

I'm not sure why I could never get the HE signal to work but with the VR signal it works great. It could have been the MSD plug.

At first MSD said it would work with an EEC-V then when I had problems they said it would NOT work. Same thing with using the EEC-V and LS1 coils from MSD. At first they said they would work and then when i could NOT get them to work they said they would not work.

In both cases it was the same person who said it would work and then would not work.

I'll pass on anything from MSD after that.

This forum will not allow me to pat full size pics for some reason or I would post a few pics of my VR sensor setup.

I've built a scratch built distributorless coil pack ignition SEFI that works with the help of this forum, Decipha's forum and his base tune. I ain't no expert but I know what has worked and not worked with my combo.

Paul

[harold]

I think I'll end up starting a thread once I do the swap just so it's on the record if the Ford HE plug works or not.

Here's a dropbox link to the CDAN2 document.

[Shaker666]

Yeah, the CDAN2 document is an absolute necessity when retrofitting CDAN4 to anything. I posted about this a few months ago in great detail, quoting the same document for the same purpose. You definitely want to run the late model short tine cam sync with the 22.5 degree ATDC setting that Harold mentioned.

Regarding controlling an E4OD, it should be possible with CDAN4 as long as the EEC and the trans electronics are the same vintage. Both 4R70W and E4OD have the same electronics: TCC solenoid, EPS solenoid, shift solenoids, and MLPS. Just make sure that the sensors you use on the E4OD are the same year as the EEC and you won't have a problem with connectors and impedances.

[decipha]

E4od has a turbine shaft sensor too

and the shift pattern is different

[Shaker666]

E4od has a turbine shaft sensor too

and the shift pattern is different

Ok, well there's definitely no turbine shaft sensor input on a CDAN4 EEC-V, is there. I'm sure the pins are reserved, but just not in use. I wonder if the hardware is present to interface with it, though... don't have any schematics for a truck, so dunno.

The shift pattern shouldn't be an issue so long as you have the correct MLPS for the transmission, right? The later model trans had a digital sensor, whereas the earlier ones were more analog (at least for the 4R70W). If the trans strategy was switched to E4OD, I would think the range sensor input would work fine as long as the correct sensor was used.

For S&G, I'll have a gander at the CDAN2 document and see if I find anything.