[lowranger96]

My buddy is doing a v8 swap in his ranger and using a 96/97 explorer setup with a 4.2 5speed 4x4.

My question is will the cam sensor on the 96/97 motors (hall effect) work with the cdan4 ecus (have a 96/97 mustang gt ecu we'll be using) which would have been VR cam sensors right? If it will work is there anything in the tune that needs attention when doing this or should we just use a 99 explorer vr cam syncro/sensor

i see that the tune can select between HE or VR so maybe it's not even a big deal but while we are parts picking maybe the vr sensors are the way to go?

[Stengun]

Howdy Lowranger,

Based on my experience the answer is "No."

I had to convert my MSD cam sync from a HE signal to a VR signal. I used a VR cam position sensor from a '97 4.6 V-8 and it works great.

The V-6 engine uses a HE signal and the V-8 engines use the VR signal. I don't think the V-8 ECUs have the hardware to use the HE signal.

Search my user name and Shaker 666 to find at all the info you will need to know.

Paul

[lowranger96]

ok cool ill just have him put the vr syncro and sensor from the 99 302 in there and call it a day

[cgrey8]

I remember a thread talking about the various Ford cam sensors and there is more than just 2. There are at least 3 and I don't just mean physical shape. I mean the internal sensor part is different on each making them electrically incompatible even if you could stab them into the same hole and have them mechanically work on the engine. The early Explorer 302s had the HE I think? Whichever it was, it was a super-simple sensor that only indicated whether #1 was up for compression or exhaust so the EEC could time injectors correctly. It wasn't used/needed for ignition.

The newer cam sensors, I think, actually indicate specific cylinders. What I don't know is if they replace cranks sensors or how you time them.

[harold]

I remember a thread talking about the various Ford cam sensors and there is more than just 2. There are at least 3 and I don't just mean physical shape. I mean the internal sensor part is different on each making them electrically incompatible even if you could stab them into the same hole and have them mechanically work on the engine. The early Explorer 302s had the HE I think? Whichever it was, it was a super-simple sensor that only indicated whether #1 was up for compression or exhaust so the EEC could time injectors correctly. It wasn't used/needed for ignition.

The newer cam sensors, I think, actually indicate specific cylinders. What I don't know is if they replace cranks sensors or how you time them.

The early Explorers have a half-moon reluctor and an HE sensor and sync on the rising and falling edges (syncing injection on 1 and 6). The late Explorers have a single tine and a VR sensor and sync only on the falling edge. I don't personally know of an Explorer cam plug other than those two.

I don't think anybody has actually tried the early Explorer plug with the HE sensor with CDAN4. Paul used an MSD plug and I've seen reports several places that those just don't output the right signal because the reluctor isn't shaped properly. I'm switching to CDAN4 this winter and will be wiring in my HE plug and sensor since I've already got that in the engine. If I can't get it to work, I'll buy the VR unit.

I keep seeing posts suggesting the EEC doesn't have the hardware to handle the HE signal, but nobody can tell me what that means. Either one should just be putting a voltage on the signal line. I can't imagine the hall voltage is going to be that far off from what the VR sensor is going to put out. The only difference should be that you have to power the HE sensor. I'm fine with being proven wrong (in fact, I've been looking for solid info either way). I'd be happier if it'll just work and I don't have to spend an extra $100 to do the swap.

[lowranger96]

i was also pretty sure i read that in the CDAN4 tune you can select HE or VR. so i was just going to change it to HE and go from there. The harness is a stock explorer piece so it's already pinned correctly and has the power the HE sensor needs. If I can select HE i dont see why it wouldn't work, but if it doesn't the VR unit isn't hard to find or expensive.

[Shaker666]

The HE sensor is an active (3-wire), 12V powered unit that produces a step function-like 0V to +12V output (non-negative). Microprocessor triggering occurs on rising and falling edge as previously described to determine TDC.

The VR sensor is a passive (2-wire) device and generates a varied amplitude sinusoid for a signal. The microprocessor is looking for a high-to-low slope zero-crossing for #1 TDC indication.

As you may be able to tell, the circuitry required for reading the 2 different types of signals is different. The HE sensor generates a signal that is out of the microprocessor's TTL reading range so a voltage divider circuit is required to scale it down, otherwise a pin or trace will be physically destroyed. The VR sensor signal is less than TTL voltage, so no voltage divider circuitry is required and can be therefore be connected directly to one of the microprocessor's pins.

VR sensing is more complicated than HE sensing, but the reason Ford eventually phased HE sensors out is because VR sensors can't fail due to power supply related issues, have less wiring interconnections, and are cheaper to manufacture. In the end, they're more reliable, but more of a PITA to read due to their sinusoidal output.

I think that if you were to feed an HE signal output to an EEC-V that was originally configured to work with a VR signal, you might fry something on the EDIS chip (the EEC doesn't actually read the CKP signal). No guarantees, and would like to know the outcome, for sure.

[decipha]

as has been stated the two are completely different, the hall effect is just a simple on/off same as the TFI on 89-95 mustang 5.0s and early DIS equipped vehicles (4cyl SVO and 6cyl supercoupe) which is not edis, hall effect sensors operate on DC voltage and either have an on or an off state

a variable reluctance sensor outputs an AC voltage and requires an independent encoder to interpret, thats why you see in the early edis days (pre 96) henry had an edis module that simply spat out a "pip" every time a cylinder reached tdc, same as the tfi module would read

EEC-V's have an internal EDIS module and don't use the external EDIS module used on the EEC-IV's

I once tried running an HE sensor on a v8 cdan4 ecu and didn't have any luck, albeit, I didn't give it much effort since I was only diagnosing some other issues but if anyone wants to give it the old college try and post back I would be interested to know

VR sensors and cam synchronizer's are readily accessible at my local pull a part, I've never even considered running an HE sensor

in fact, I personally dislike the HE sensors, my 89-93 supercoupes come factory equipped with hall effect crank and cam triggers, and they are prone to issues. I always recommend replacing them in pairs too, I've never had a cam sensor fail to get replaced and the crank sensor not fail shortly there after or vice-versa. They usually take out the external TFI or "DIS" module too in the process. Absolute garbage. VR is the way to go, I've never once had to change a faulty VR sensor ever, they just work.

[lowranger96]

everything i needed to know for that! VR sensor it is!

[harold]

Thanks for the explanation of the hardware side.

As for getting the VR plug from a junk yard, all the ones I've found are severely worn out. I'm not about to use once that's got 1/4" of end play. I'd sooner use my existing one with a VR sensor and just align it manually.

[decipha]

no prob, its not too often I post good info so don't rely on me to do it much

whoa 1/4" of end play is no good atal

[lowranger96]

can get a new syncro and sensor with tool for $35 on rockauto

[Shaker666]

Yes, Rockauto comes in handy for this sort of deal. If you've got a 302/5.0 or smaller displacement small block Ford, use the stock cam sync sensor from either a '96-98 Ford Explorer with a 5.0 for Hall effect, or '99-01 Ford Explorer with 5.0 for VR sensor. The ting inside the cam sync sensor is different for Hall effect (half moon) or VR (much smaller, maybe 15-20* arc length ting). I think it was Haroldk that discovered the fact that a VR sensor from '99-01 is interchangeable with the Hall effect sensor in terms of mechanical mounting.

For 351W, 351C, and other Ford applications that need either a Hall effect or VR sensing cam sync, find a cam sync sensor out of a late 90s Windstar van with a 3.8 V6. You'll also need to find a cam sync from a late Ford Explorer with a 5.0, specifically for the housing. Swapping the Windstar 3.8 shaft assembly into the 5.0 cam sync housing will result in a 351W/351C/400M/429/460 compatible cam sync.

[harold]

There have been a bunch of reports of the cheap ones failing. I'd be getting a new Motorcraft one.

However, since the computer is only looking for the falling edge with the VR sensor, I could still just use the one that's already on the engine and time it manually.

I actually have a 3.8 plug and was considering making a 351W plug out of it and the housing from the cheap one I got that failed (the roll pin for the gear sheared). I don't need one, but I do see it come up periodically.

[MdntRanger50]

You'll also need to find a cam sync from a late Ford Explorer with a 5.0, specifically for the housing. Swapping the Windstar 3.8 shaft assembly into the 5.0 cam sync housing will result in a 351W/351C/400M/429/460 compatible cam sync.

How will the cam sync housing from a 5.0 explorer work in a 351w when the 5.0 sync housing has a physical smaller OD than the distributor hole in the 351w block?

[cgrey8]

I thought they were the same size but after some googling around, sure enough, there is a very slight difference.

It's slight enough that people might have been getting away with the slop by just using a thicker O-ring to hold the cam sensor tight despite the difference in diameter.

[MdntRanger50]

I can machine a .060 thick overall (.030/side) interference fit sleeve to go above the oring in area pictured, plus install a bigger appropriate size oring to seal and make the 5.0 housing fit correctly in a 351w. The reason I brought this up is because I have been researching the cam sync to do a obdii 351w engine using a CDAN4 strategy computer. I am aware of the Mallory unit as well, they are pricey though. I would rather make one for almost nothing. I assume the CDAN4 requires a VR cam sync. I already have a 28oz balanced explorer balancer redone by dampenerdudes to use the explorer front dress and the explorer crank sensor setup.

Do the late 90's Windstar 3.8l use VR cam sync? I assume they do since the explorers went to VR in the late 90's as well.

[TwinSCs]

You just need an adapter collar, a 3.8 sensor (available in both HE and VR), and a longer oil pump drive shaft. I don't have any more on hand, but I can get them.

My solution:

[MdntRanger50]

Cool thanks for chimming in, I like seeing different ideas and solutions to issues. So is the 3.8l cam sync physically longer than the 5.0? That adapter collar takes up a good bit of space, I am assuming that is a stock 3.8l cam sync. I thought you could just swap the larger 3.8l shaft into the 5.0 housing and it was the right length. I haven't not put any of these syncs side by side to compare, I guess I need to do that next to see what it what. Right now I have a 5.0, 3.8 mustang, and 4.2 f150 cam sync to play with.

[TwinSCs]

Yes, stock 3.8 sensor, it's roughly 3/4" longer. I was going to try swapping shafts myself, but I didn't like how sloppy the 5.0 housing fit.

[MdntRanger50]

The adapter collar for the 3.8 sync. Is that something you made or do you have someone else machine them or are they already available? Just curious, I am an industrial machinist.

[TwinSCs]

I buy them from the guy that originally designed them. I don't think they've ever been in full production or anything because the demand just isn't that big for them. I sell them as an add-on to the harnesses I build on the side.

[drudis]

Yes, Rockauto comes in handy for this sort of deal. If you've got a 302/5.0 or smaller displacement small block Ford, use the stock cam sync sensor from either a '96-98 Ford Explorer with a 5.0 for Hall effect, or '99-01 Ford Explorer with 5.0 for VR sensor. The ting inside the cam sync sensor is different for Hall effect (half moon) or VR (much smaller, maybe 15-20* arc length ting). I think it was Haroldk that discovered the fact that a VR sensor from '99-01 is interchangeable with the Hall effect sensor in terms of mechanical mounting.

For 351W, 351C, and other Ford applications that need either a Hall effect or VR sensing cam sync, find a cam sync sensor out of a late 90s Windstar van with a 3.8 V6. You'll also need to find a cam sync from a late Ford Explorer with a 5.0, specifically for the housing. Swapping the Windstar 3.8 shaft assembly into the 5.0 cam sync housing will result in a 351W/351C/400M/429/460 compatible cam sync.

According to another post on another forum: (CAN YOU GUYS CONFIRM HERE)
Buy a camshaft phaser from a 1999~2004 3.8L V6 Mustang and a camshaft phaser from a 1997 Explorer 5.0L motor, remove the shaft in the Explorer and install the shaft from the V6. Install the “modified” Explorer phaser in your car. Pro: Was done many times by other people, recommended by Megasquirt.

This is going on my 427cid Dart block (351Wbased) application, using Megasquirt MS3.

[Shaker666]

Yes, Rockauto comes in handy for this sort of deal. If you've got a 302/5.0 or smaller displacement small block Ford, use the stock cam sync sensor from either a '96-98 Ford Explorer with a 5.0 for Hall effect, or '99-01 Ford Explorer with 5.0 for VR sensor. The ting inside the cam sync sensor is different for Hall effect (half moon) or VR (much smaller, maybe 15-20* arc length ting). I think it was Haroldk that discovered the fact that a VR sensor from '99-01 is interchangeable with the Hall effect sensor in terms of mechanical mounting.

For 351W, 351C, and other Ford applications that need either a Hall effect or VR sensing cam sync, find a cam sync sensor out of a late 90s Windstar van with a 3.8 V6. You'll also need to find a cam sync from a late Ford Explorer with a 5.0, specifically for the housing. Swapping the Windstar 3.8 shaft assembly into the 5.0 cam sync housing will result in a 351W/351C/400M/429/460 compatible cam sync.

According to another post on another forum: (CAN YOU GUYS CONFIRM HERE)
Buy a camshaft phaser from a 1999~2004 3.8L V6 Mustang and a camshaft phaser from a 1997 Explorer 5.0L motor, remove the shaft in the Explorer and install the shaft from the V6. Install the “modified” Explorer phaser in your car. Pro: Was done many times by other people, recommended by Megasquirt.

This is going on my 427cid Dart block (351Wbased) application, using Megasquirt MS3.

I bought a new cam phaser from a '99-01 Explorer (with the shorter tine, for VR sensed triggering) and dropped the guts of that inside a 3.8 V6 cam phaser housing. You have to use the '99-01 Explorer guts because the tine is shorter for the VR sensing. CDAN4 can handle VR sensing only (2-wire), not Hall effect (half-moon tine, 3-wire).