Change maf or injector slopes

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cougar351
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Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:57 pm

So I am still learning and I ran a 6.2 at 112 in the 1/8 with my 3600 pound car so the car is making decent power. well I went to turn it up and ran into some issues. Come to find out I am pretty sure I hacked up a lot of things to get it to were it is. So I want to try and start over. Question is at wot commanding 11.5 I am getting 12.5 now do I use a multiplier, mess with the maf transfer or mess with injector high slope? I no everyone has different ways but I want it to be the right way. I attached a new datalogg file injectors are 80lbs the slopes and data are still 75 101 ect with breakpoint and voltage pulsewidth. Maf sensor is a hpx 3 inch tube with the correct data. Nothing is scaled.
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injector maf new 2018_Aug_01_15-06-30.csv
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67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Heres my tune
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injector maf new.BIN
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Here is my old tune
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track day hot.BIN
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:02 pm

here is a data log from my old tune I no its a mess and I was spraying meth on the track day tune and data logg
Attachments
track day hot 2018_Jul_30_14-06-30.csv
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:33 pm

cougar351 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:00 pm
Heres my tune
Your settings are whack. You can not run Z_kamclr enabled full time. Your maf xfer is wrong up top. Set your rev limiters back to the stock values, as is right now you are killing fuel earlier than stock. Why do you have a global spark adder for closed throttle and another spark adder for ect? The both combined is adding an additional 9 degrees to your sealevel table... :shock: I would fix the obvious, set all of your injector settings to the Ford Racing Values and just tune accordingly through the maf transfer.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by skunk » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:06 pm

I have not looked at the data you provided.....yes there are many ways to go about this. How do you use the car?

It appears your concern is mainly track duty WOT. If your happy will all other running conditions adjust the MAF points for WOT. I prefer to tune for OL first then enable the WOT multplier only when I'm happy. I do this to safeguard for unforseen conditions like lower than advertised octane.

If you find OL fuel is OK and your only lean when hitting peak boost WOT then you may need more multplier.

You will have to set the WOT multplier to 1 to see what OL fuel looks like at the MAF Voltages in question. I would turn the boost way down for finding out where things sit. If your getting 12.5 with the multplier now you will be even leaner without.

Im beginning to ramble again so in closing......me personally.....I would throw the advertised injector data away. Ratio injector slopes and Breakpoint up by the percentage of increase leaving the battery offset stock. Now hammer away at the MAF. Lastly depending on placement of the HEGO and how big of a pipe they are mounted in.....I would shift the entire HEGO bias up one cell giving you a leaner bias for light cruise low flow closed loop conditions. (Ok that last point may need clarification depending on how you set up your tables get into later if you wish)

John
1987 Turbocoupe.
A3M1/A9L, BE/EA, Tweecer RT.
306,Single Turbo, Ported E7's, Ported Stock Intake, 42lb Matched Green Tops, PMAS 3" Blow-Thru Protube (42# supercharger calibrated),T5z, 3.73 gears
..... Nothin Fancy.......Just something to keep me from the honey-do list.........

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:26 pm

EDS50 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:33 pm
cougar351 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:00 pm
Heres my tune
Your settings are whack. You can not run Z_kamclr enabled full time. Your maf xfer is wrong up top. Set your rev limiters back to the stock values, as is right now you are killing fuel earlier than stock. Why do you have a global spark adder for closed throttle and another spark adder for ect? The both combined is adding an additional 9 degrees to your sealevel table... :shock: I would fix the obvious, set all of your injector settings to the Ford Racing Values and just tune accordingly through the maf transfer.
I have no 02 sensors tuning in open loop I no I am trying to do this myself and I am new to it. Also I adjust my maf to try to add more fuel at top because it kept leaning out. And my sealevel timing it is what it is it hasn't added any timing on data logs. I disabled all other timing so it just uses sealevel.
67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:31 pm

We know, we are here to help. I f you fix the few simple errors and set the injectors to the correct settings you will be able to tune most of it throu the maf xfer. I think that is the easiest. Z_kamclr must be disabled, saved and written to the hardware as such.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:55 pm

EDS50 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:31 pm
We know, we are here to help. I f you fix the few simple errors and set the injectors to the correct settings you will be able to tune most of it throu the maf xfer. I think that is the easiest. Z_kamclr must be disabled, saved and written to the hardware as such.
Ok so if I use the factory 80lb settings and hpx 3 inch setting fix z_kamclr and rev limiter and check out timing again.
67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:03 pm

Pretty much. Then you can pay more attention to the maf.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:15 pm

skunk wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:06 pm
I have not looked at the data you provided.....yes there are many ways to go about this. How do you use the car?

It appears your concern is mainly track duty WOT. If your happy will all other running conditions adjust the MAF points for WOT. I prefer to tune for OL first then enable the WOT multplier only when I'm happy. I do this to safeguard for unforseen conditions like lower than advertised octane.

If you find OL fuel is OK and your only lean when hitting peak boost WOT then you may need more multplier.

You will have to set the WOT multplier to 1 to see what OL fuel looks like at the MAF Voltages in question. I would turn the boost way down for finding out where things sit. If your getting 12.5 with the multplier now you will be even leaner without.

Im beginning to ramble again so in closing......me personally.....I would throw the advertised injector data away. Ratio injector slopes and Breakpoint up by the percentage of increase leaving the battery offset stock. Now hammer away at the MAF. Lastly depending on placement of the HEGO and how big of a pipe they are mounted in.....I would shift the entire HEGO bias up one cell giving you a leaner bias for light cruise low flow closed loop conditions. (Ok that last point may need clarification depending on how you set up your tables get into later if you wish)

John
It is a street car but run it in the 1/8th alot all I want it for the fuel to add fuel when I ask it lol. I am still learning I will try to figure things out with some of your suggestions, I had it running well perfect 11.5 afr turn the boost up and no matter how much fuel I add it doesn't go were I want it.
67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:37 pm

You may very well be out of pump or your pegging the meter. Ill have to look at your logs.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:51 pm

This log was from the 1/8 mile track and this is spraying a 9gph and a 6 gph nozzle with twin walbaro 255s fuel base pressure was 51 with 1 to 1 regulator. And the afr is so inconstant even at the same maf counts at wot
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newest one number 5 meth 2018_Jul_28_13-29-26.csv
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67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:55 pm

Same tune with another pull
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newest one number 5 meth 2018_Jul_28_14-32-11.csv
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by skunk » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:57 pm

If your adding fuel via the MAF, your fuel should be consistent but not necessarily correct. You need to dial in the fuel via MAF up top with the Wot multplier disabled. Make it match the fuel table. You can also disable the OL fuel multplier if you like, I don't bother since its a constant and doesnt fluctuate like the WOT multplier. Did you change the sealevel load scaling at all? If this was increased significantly, it will keep you lower (leaner) on the fuel table. I remember you said you were around 155 load, what does LoadX say.

If I remember correctly your running a 408? Likely no upper intake, just an elbow and modified carb style lower? Twin Turbo, blow thru MAF. Did you install the ACT sensor or is just hanging in the engine bay?

The Act doesn't have enough influence to worry about but it's a good item to have installed to monitor air charge temperature. Heat soak doesn't help you...and you don't want to rely on the meth unless you have a huge tank.

If you haven't already done so.... pressure test your entire intake tract. You wouldn't believe how many leaks you find with a spray bottle of soapy water.

John
1987 Turbocoupe.
A3M1/A9L, BE/EA, Tweecer RT.
306,Single Turbo, Ported E7's, Ported Stock Intake, 42lb Matched Green Tops, PMAS 3" Blow-Thru Protube (42# supercharger calibrated),T5z, 3.73 gears
..... Nothin Fancy.......Just something to keep me from the honey-do list.........

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:08 pm

Yes it's a lower with a carb style flange and a elbow. Act sensor is in the elbow after the meth. Meth tank is in the trunk it's a lawnmower fuel tank so it is pretty large.i will check for intake leaks tomorrow but I always assumed intake leaks after mat would cause rich condition either way it shouldn't have any. I will have to check were the sealevel load scale is i don't think I have messed with that in a while.
Last edited by cougar351 on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:10 pm

You have a ton of info missing from your datalog. There is no mafv shown but I can see your afr is lean through midrange and just dumps fuel above 4k because you are pegging the meter since your 15 volt mafv value is lower than your 4.70 mafv value. Your battery voltage is weak at wot and is not enough to drive your pumps to deliver the fuel you need or the ignition to fire it. Those pumps require 13.5 volts and your at 12.65. Your injector duty cycle is only reaching 56% which proves your pumps are not performing as you would like. You need to build a better payload to log and fix a lot of tuning issues. If you were trying to run 1/4 mile you would melt the motor down with your current issues. Your highest rpm reached is 4600 which has been your saving grace so far. Your commanded lambse at wot under boost is 14.64 :shock: :shock:
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 pm

I new it was on the edge of melting down I've just been aggravated and wasn't caring at the time..... Its been along process and I'm used to easy map sensor tuning...
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:16 pm

We're do you see my commanded lambse under wot? Guess I thought open loop base table was the table it took it from
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Where are you located? We need to get you set up with a better tune and check over the basics. Ill pm you.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:21 pm

I am in Maine. Ok sounds good that would be awesome!
Last edited by cougar351 on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:23 pm

Your commanded lambse and the rest of the info available highlited in blue.
log.jpg
log
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1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:25 pm

EDS50 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:23 pm
Your commanded lambse and the rest of the info available highlited in blue.

log.jpg
Yea that's definitely no good i have only looked at my loggs from the binary editor graph.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by EDS50 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Ill pm you.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by skunk » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:06 am

Your in good hands with Ed......I just want to throw out there. once you get your basics sorted, I would drop that fuel pressure down a little and tune with the meth off. A base 51 ends up putting you around 64 with 13# of boost. That in itself is labouring the pump and electrical system. When your meth pump kicks in.....it makes it worse.

I personally think your fuel system is ok.....you may need to upgrade your alternator/battery and maybe some wire feeding the fuel pumps. You may even want to consider a small second battery as a buffer for the meth pump. If your set up is anything like mine....you have a turbo very close to the alternator. Making some sort of heat shield will also help keep voltage up.

My comment about checking for leaks was more so to ensure your turbos aren't over spinning working outside of it's efficiency, heating the air charge. It doesnt mater where the leak is.....no resistance means the gate stays closed, indirectly effecting fuel.

John
1987 Turbocoupe.
A3M1/A9L, BE/EA, Tweecer RT.
306,Single Turbo, Ported E7's, Ported Stock Intake, 42lb Matched Green Tops, PMAS 3" Blow-Thru Protube (42# supercharger calibrated),T5z, 3.73 gears
..... Nothin Fancy.......Just something to keep me from the honey-do list.........

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 am

skunk wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:06 am
Your in good hands with Ed......I just want to throw out there. once you get your basics sorted, I would drop that fuel pressure down a little and tune with the meth off. A base 51 ends up putting you around 64 with 13# of boost. That in itself is labouring the pump and electrical system. When your meth pump kicks in.....it makes it worse.

I personally think your fuel system is ok.....you may need to upgrade your alternator/battery and maybe some wire feeding the fuel pumps. You may even want to consider a small second battery as a buffer for the meth pump. If your set up is anything like mine....you have a turbo very close to the alternator. Making some sort of heat shield will also help keep voltage up.

My comment about checking for leaks was more so to ensure your turbos aren't over spinning working outside of it's efficiency, heating the air charge. It doesnt mater where the leak is.....no resistance means the gate stays closed, indirectly effecting fuel.

John
Thanks for the info! Yes the alternator is close to the turbo i figured it was getting heat soaked and dropping voltage. The turbos do have blankets and the exhaust is wrapped but i do plan on making a heat shield. I turned up my fuel pressure to 50 because i thought i was running out of fuel, so i was seeing if i upped the pressure i might see a change. The pumps have been rewired but the battery is in the trunk and i could add a second battery if this new alternator doesn't fix things. I got it warrantied out. ED is going to help me and i am so appreciative of it. This has been a long learning curve lol
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:38 am

cougar351 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 am
...I turned up my fuel pressure to 50 because i thought i was running out of fuel, so i was seeing if i upped the pressure i might see a change...
Keep in mind that if the fuel pump is undersized, raising the fuel pressure isn't going to help. In fact, it's going to do the opposite. Pump flow curves show that a typical pump's flowrate is reduced as pressure increases.

The only time increasing fuel pressure should be used to increase fuel delivery is if injectors are maxing out at 90+% duty cycle while at WOT. In these cases, the increased pressure will help overcome injector inadequacy. But the fuel pump has to be capable of delivering the max fuel demand at this elevated pressure. On a N/A engine, that's probably not a big deal, but on a heavily boosted engine where the fuel pump will already be stressed by having to push the rated fuel pressure PLUS your boost pressure, this becomes a recipe for disaster for the pump if it isn't sized to deliver under heavy boost conditions. A lot of people forget that if you are pushing 15 PSI into the intake, the fuel rail pressure is ALSO increased by 15 PSI. So if you go setting the fuel pressure from, say 40 PSI to 50. That means the fuel pump, at WOT would be having to push fuel at 65 PSI (50 PSI base + 15 PSI boost)! And you can be guaranteed that any fuel pump's flowrate at 65 PSI is not going to be what it's rated flow rate is at 40.

...just something to think about.
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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am

cgrey8 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:38 am
cougar351 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 am
...I turned up my fuel pressure to 50 because i thought i was running out of fuel, so i was seeing if i upped the pressure i might see a change...
Keep in mind that if the fuel pump is undersized, raising the fuel pressure isn't going to help. In fact, it's going to do the opposite. Pump flow curves show that a typical pump's flowrate is reduced as pressure increases.

The only time increasing fuel pressure should be used to increase fuel delivery is if injectors are maxing out at 90+% duty cycle while at WOT. In these cases, the increased pressure will help overcome injector inadequacy. But the fuel pump has to be capable of delivering the max fuel demand at this elevated pressure. On a N/A engine, that's probably not a big deal, but on a heavily boosted engine where the fuel pump will already be stressed by having to push the rated fuel pressure PLUS your boost pressure, this becomes a recipe for disaster for the pump if it isn't sized to deliver under heavy boost conditions. A lot of people forget that if you are pushing 15 PSI into the intake, the fuel rail pressure is ALSO increased by 15 PSI. So if you go setting the fuel pressure from, say 40 PSI to 50. That means the fuel pump, at WOT would be having to push fuel at 65 PSI (50 PSI base + 15 PSI boost)! And you can be guaranteed that any fuel pump's flowrate at 65 PSI is not going to be what it's rated flow rate is at 40.

...just something to think about.
This makes since. I figured the more pressure the more fuel but if i am pushing them out of the efficiency range then raise the pressure is actually hurting flow if the injectors are big enough.
67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:32 pm

COUGAR2.jpg
Heres a picture of the old cougar
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67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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Re: Change maf or injector slopes

Post by cougar351 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:33 pm

COUGAR1.jpg
engine setup when I was still in the process of building the turbo kit and Ifs
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67 cougar 408w twin 61mm turbos th400 3.08s best 1/8 mile 6.1 at 114

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