Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

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Shinoda
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Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:03 pm

Hello everyone,

First-time poster long time lurker. Love the site and all the information floating around.

I got my car tuned late last year by a great local tuner who did a fantastic job. It's been running pretty good but it did quit making power at 4k but I think that may be another issue. I installed the wideband in the collector on my long tubes where my normal o2's went which were turned off by the tuner. I'm using a Zeitronix ZT-2 with LCD screen. At idle I'm seeing AF at 21 and cruising around 16-17, when I get on it they drop to 13ish. Talked to the tuner and he said that is normal for how he had to tune it. I did fix a few vacuum leaks, reground the ECM and motor and a tuneup since then and wanted to make sure none of those things screwed up all his work. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:32 pm

Welcome. Have you done a free air calibration of the wb sensor since your repairs? Is the transfer function correct for the wb you're using and defined properly in your tuning software?
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, I didn't have a wideband when the car was originally tuned, I just recently installed it. I don't currently have any tuning software I just bought the sensor to monitor current AF. I do plan on doing some tuning in the future but not currently.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Understood. 21 afr is extremely lean and 15-16 afr cruising is lean. I would expect idle and cruising afrs 14-15 and wot would really depend on your engine combination. Is your current tune on a chip?
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:08 pm

It is on a chip in an A9L computer for a Mustang. It seemed really lean but the tuner wasn't too concerned about it, he said it's common.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:16 pm

Lean should not be common after you pay for a tune but the afr might have been correct on his dyno and wideband. It doesn't sound like your tuner is as good as you think he is if he sends you out the door with the attitude that lean is common. I could be jumping to conclusions, but as a tuner I would be concerned with lean conditions.
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm

Thank you. I was going to try to add some fuel pressure and see how it responds. I believe it's set at 38lbs right now. That is, unless you have another option?

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:38 pm

I would leave the fuel pressure where the tuner set it. If all the mechanical aspect of the engine are in order, then it is potentially a tuning issue. Without access to the tune itself, it is extremely hard to determine outside of common sense. There are too many variables and assumptions that can be made without all of the facts. I would recommend taking the car back to the tuner since you have a wideband installed and see how yours compares to his. For all you know he may have only tune wide open throttle and not spent any time on driveability, cruising and idle but we dont know anything for sure.
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:07 am

What cam are you using and what is your setup?

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:58 pm

Mitchb wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:07 am
What cam are you using and what is your setup?
302, X cam, AFR 165's, GT40 upper and lower, 70mm TB, 76 MAF 24# injectors, long tubes, T5Z.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:44 pm

So, I have a question: does your sampling of the exhaust accurately represent the A/F in the engine, particularly at low engine speed?

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:11 am

Mitchb wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:44 pm
So, I have a question: does your sampling of the exhaust accurately represent the A/F in the engine, particularly at low engine speed?
Just curious, how would he know that?
...Always Somethin'

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:02 am

Mitchb wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:44 pm
So, I have a question: does your sampling of the exhaust accurately represent the A/F in the engine, particularly at low engine speed?

Unfortunately, I have no clue at the moment.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 am

Your car is setup to run full time open loop?

You are using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? You can gain insight into this by running the engine at two different fuel pressures while monitoring intake manifold vacuum and RPM. This is what I would do:

Disconnect the idle speed control solenoid and manually set engine speed to something like 900 RPM using the throttle body set screw. Once you have the throttle set to give a stabilized fixed RPM, raise the fuel pressure to something like 60psi. Does raising fuel pressure change your manifold vacuum and/or RPM?

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 am

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 am
...Once you have the throttle set to give a stabilized fixed RPM, raise the fuel pressure to something like 60psi. Does raising fuel pressure change your manifold vacuum and/or RPM?
More importantly, what do each of the possible scenarios mean? The scenarios being:
  • Pressure goes up (less vacuum)
  • Pressure goes down (deeper vacuum)
  • RPM goes up
  • RPM goes down
  • Likely combinations of the above (e.g. RPM up/Pressure down and RPM down/Pressure up). I don't think the other 2 are likely with a fixed set screw, but if they are relevant, what do they mean?
  • No change
While he's likely to only see 1 of these scenarios, it'd be useful for others, including myself, to know what all these mean. I could guess, but, that's all it'd be is guessing.
...Always Somethin'

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:08 am

Perform the simple test and report the results. Then we'll talk.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:06 am

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:08 am
Perform the simple test and report the results. Then we'll talk.
What is the point or end result of the o.p. doing anything your asking him to do? :confused:
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:24 am

Provide facts, then we will have a discussion.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:27 am

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:24 am
Provide facts, then we will have a discussion.
Are you feeling ok? Do you realize the o.p. relys on a dyno tuner and has no tuning capability or software? Why are you trying to get him to jump through any unnecessary hoops?
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Shinoda wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm
Thank you. I was going to try to add some fuel pressure and see how it responds. I believe it's set at 38lbs right now. That is, unless you have another option?
Was the fuel pressure set at the dyno with the vacuum leaks you fixed or did the vacuum leaks occur after the dyno? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge and adjustable pressure regulator?
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:37 pm

The OP does not need tuning capability to answer the question.

Really, I am asking for details relevant to his questions. Just let him answer.

The state of how I am feeling has no relevance to any of this.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:39 pm

EDS50 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:12 pm
Shinoda wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm
Thank you. I was going to try to add some fuel pressure and see how it responds. I believe it's set at 38lbs right now. That is, unless you have another option?
Was the fuel pressure set at the dyno with the vacuum leaks you fixed or did the vacuum leaks occur after the dyno? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge and adjustable pressure regulator?

I have no way to check what you are asking for Mitch for at the moment. I'm looking to change that but at the moment I can't answer your questions.

EDS50,

The tuner set the FP and I'm assuming the vacuum leak was present at the time of tuning. I highly doubt the leak in question occurred on the ride home. I do have an FP gauge and adjustable regulator.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Shinoda » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:41 pm

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 am
Your car is setup to run full time open loop?

You are using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? You can gain insight into this by running the engine at two different fuel pressures while monitoring intake manifold vacuum and RPM. This is what I would do:

Disconnect the idle speed control solenoid and manually set engine speed to something like 900 RPM using the throttle body set screw. Once you have the throttle set to give a stabilized fixed RPM, raise the fuel pressure to something like 60psi. Does raising fuel pressure change your manifold vacuum and/or RPM?

Unfortunately, I am unsure if it set up in full-time open loop. I do have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:48 pm

Shinoda wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:39 pm
EDS50 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:12 pm
Shinoda wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm
Thank you. I was going to try to add some fuel pressure and see how it responds. I believe it's set at 38lbs right now. That is, unless you have another option?
Was the fuel pressure set at the dyno with the vacuum leaks you fixed or did the vacuum leaks occur after the dyno? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge and adjustable pressure regulator?

EDS50,

The tuner set the FP and I'm assuming the vacuum leak was present at the time of tuning. I highly doubt the leak in question occurred on the ride home. I do have an FP gauge and adjustable regulator.
The only change I would make at this point is to set thebase fuel pressure to 39 with the vacuum line off, once set put vac line off. The tuner should have checked over alll of the basics and discover the vacuum leaks or any other potential mechanical issues and brought them to your attention and resolved them or gave you the pportunity to do so before tuning the car. Thats neither here or there now but any mechancial changes yoou make now will affect the current tune. This would be the opportunity for you to either :

A: Tkae the car back to the tuner if you are confident that all of the mechanical issues are resolved or

B: Consider purchasing a QH and the tuning software like Binary Editor and learn to tune the car yourself. There is a steep learning curve but it pays for itself by giving you the freedom of not being tied down to or reliant on paying someone to tune the car for you.
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:50 pm

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:37 pm
The OP does not need tuning capability to answer the question.

Really, I am asking for details relevant to his questions. Just let him answer.

The state of how I am feeling has no relevance to any of this.
Nothing what you are asking is of any relevance to the o.p.'s questions or concerns. If you learned to read the op stated the tuner shut off the o2's in the tune so we already know the car is in full time open loop. The op doesn't have a vacuum gauge on the car so how is he going to monitor manifold pressure? Disturbing his idle and tps setting is a waste of time since he is not reporting any idle instability or difficulty outside of the lean afr which is tune related. Adjusting the fuel pressure to anything but 39 base is a waste of time since the o.p. stated the tuner tuned his car with vacuum leaks present. The fact of the matter is the car needs to have all of the basic mechanicals gone over and to be retuned by a more competent tuner which is my opinion since the the o2s didn't need to be disabled forcing open loop in the tune to accommodate the addition of the wideband and no tuner in their right mind should be tuning a car without inspecting the mechanicals first and sending a car out the door tuned to a vac leak.
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:08 pm

cgrey8 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:11 am
Mitchb wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:44 pm
So, I have a question: does your sampling of the exhaust accurately represent the A/F in the engine, particularly at low engine speed?
Just curious, how would he know that?
I am extremely curious as well...
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:40 pm

Shinoda wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:41 pm
Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 am
Your car is setup to run full time open loop?

You are using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? You can gain insight into this by running the engine at two different fuel pressures while monitoring intake manifold vacuum and RPM. This is what I would do:

Disconnect the idle speed control solenoid and manually set engine speed to something like 900 RPM using the throttle body set screw. Once you have the throttle set to give a stabilized fixed RPM, raise the fuel pressure to something like 60psi. Does raising fuel pressure change your manifold vacuum and/or RPM?

Unfortunately, I am unsure if it set up in full-time open loop. I do have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Please do what I am asking you to do when you can. I am asking for valid, sound reasons which I do not feel I need to justify to others right now. You can PM me if you wish to discuss privately.

Mitch

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:03 pm

Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:40 pm
Shinoda wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:41 pm
Mitchb wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 am
Your car is setup to run full time open loop?

You are using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? You can gain insight into this by running the engine at two different fuel pressures while monitoring intake manifold vacuum and RPM. This is what I would do:

Disconnect the idle speed control solenoid and manually set engine speed to something like 900 RPM using the throttle body set screw. Once you have the throttle set to give a stabilized fixed RPM, raise the fuel pressure to something like 60psi. Does raising fuel pressure change your manifold vacuum and/or RPM?

Unfortunately, I am unsure if it set up in full-time open loop. I do have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Please do what I am asking you to do when you can. I am asking for valid, sound reasons which I do not feel I need to justify to others right now. You can PM me if you wish to discuss privately.

Mitch
Why are you so afraid to share your reasoning with the rest of us since you joined the discussion? Maybe we can all learn something from you. If you dont want to be a part of the discussion next time, perhaps you should stick to pm instead of posting in a public discussion forum.
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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by Mitchb » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:46 pm

I want to discuss his situation when I have FACTS. Simple enough. I made a relatively simple request. It is up to him if he wants to persue this or just talk about it.

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Re: Just installed a wideband and it's showing really lean at idle.

Post by EDS50 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Fair enough.
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