DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

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glaser67
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DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by glaser67 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:26 pm

Hey all,

Decided to replace my stock 19# yellow tops with Accel 24#. Changed my HS, LS, injector offsets and she fired up, but ran pig rich despite my initial tune. Then after an issue turning over, I jumped the starter and it seemed to lock up suddenly.

Removed the plugs, saw #1 was wet, turned over by hand from underneath then just poured out gas from the plug hole.

Thinking it couple be a ground short causing the injector to stay open, I unplugged it. Primed the ignition, turned over by hand again, and more fuel comes out.

The injector can swivel freely in place, and seems to be seated fully. I am guessing a bad injector? Bad ECM? Before I go removing the injector and bench testing it, I wanted to get you all's input.

Would also like to add that it sounds like my fuel pump is running constantly prior to ignition; I hear the solenoid click off after a few seconds but I can hear fuel flowing through the rail.

Thanks all,
-Glaser67

(302 with truck EFI manifold and MAF conversion. GUFB A9L
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Paulie
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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by Paulie » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:17 am

If you unplug the electrical connector from the suspect injector and fuel continues to pour in that cylinder that injector is mechanically stuck open. You would need to replace that injector.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by EDS50 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:36 pm

The fuel pump should not run continuous after the key on priming sequence. A bad tune or dead battery on the QH will do this (if your are using a QH). No details so we don't know.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

glaser67
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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by glaser67 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:46 am

Sorry for leaving out details, I know better...

I verified it is in fact the new Accel injector in cylinder #1. After one bad unit, I'm gonna return them for reman Bosch ones or go new from FRP from summit.

I have a question (if need be new thread please let me know but I feel its relevant) if the USCAR long style would fit in place of the EV6 Bosch style in my 302 truck EFI lower and fuel rail?

Also their impedance is listed from 11-18 ohms; would this be an issue with throwing off pulse width? IDK. I have adjustable FPR to dial in pressure as required.

I don't want to have to go through this nonsense with defective injectors again and I trust FRP.

Thanks all,
-Glaser67
89' F-150, NA 5.0, MAF conversion - Quarterhorse w/Binary Editor, A9L, GUFB

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:31 am

The 11-18 ohm is a standard high impedance range. So you are fine there.

The question of whether USCAR or EV6 gets more complicated. I could be wrong here or at the very least incomplete, but from what I understand USCAR describes the electrical connector of the injector as well as the top of the injector's diameter. However I don't believe it describes the injectors height/length nor the lower diameter. When comparing USCAR, the other term that often comes up is Jetronics, which I believe is what most people associate with EV6. On the Ford Explorer 5.0Ls, I believe the lines were blurred because the 96-97 Explorers came with Bosch Orange EV6 body injectors with the EV1 connector. They weren't the only ones as I believe there were some GMs that did the same thing. The 36lb injectors I have on my truck now, supposedly, came out of some Supercharged Pontiac V6 which makes finding sets for V8s interesting because you end up having to buy 2 sets to get 8 injectors or find someone that's already done that for you and is selling a set of 8. Point being, both the stock Explorer Orange Bosch 17lb injectors and the Pontiac ivory/white Bosch 36lb injectors are the obvious EV6 Bosch body style with EV1 connectors.

Somewhere around 98-99ish, the Ford Explorer converted over to using Bosch ivory injectors (not 36lb) with the USCAR connection on them. However I don't know if the upper and lower diameters were any different than the 96-97 era Orange injectors. They did this at the same time they went pseudo-returnless on the fuel rail and I believe went to a higher rail pressure. People using these engines wanted them for older vehicles that had return style fuel systems so they ditched both the stock Explorer injectors AND rails hence why I don't know for sure if there was a difference or not in their diameters since there was never a real-world need to care in the case of 98-01 Explorer 5.0Ls used in other vehicles.

Now here's where things can get confusing. When buying new injectors, you have to make sure the new injectors, particularly if they are "USCAR" injectors are the right length given USCAR have at least 3 common lengths. I don't know if those lengths follow some industry standard or if they are manufacturer spec'd. As long as wherever you are buying these from say they fit your application, then you should be good. But if buying used, you have to be aware of what you are buying, what they came out of, and know to ask or you might end up with something you can't use.

If that weren't enough, then you have spray pattern concerns. The USCAR injectors that came in DOHC Mustangs don't use a standard spray pattern. The pattern is V-shaped because there are literally two intake ports per cylinder that go down to the 2 intake valves. So to cater to that, the injector sprays in a V-pattern. That's not what you want in a traditional single-port head. Will it work? Yeah with a lot more wall-wetting which will still work, but isn't ideal. After all, carbs and TBI setups wetted the entire inside of the intake with fuel, not just the walls at the port. It just has the potential of making transient fuel tuning more necessary.

Main concerns:
  • Upper O-ring diameter need to fit your rail
  • Lower O-ring diameter needs to fit your intake
  • The electrical connector needs to match your wiring harness OR you need an adapter
  • Flowrate AT your targeted fuel pressure needs to be right
  • Spray pattern needs to be a standard spray
  • Impedance matching...which is far less of an issue today than it was 15-20 years ago since most gasoline injectors today are high impedance.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by Paulie » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:20 am

USCAR and Jetronic refer to the style connector. Your truck and all the pushrod 5.0L Mustangs used the Jetronic style connector from the factory. EV1 refers to the fat style injectors again found on your truck and all pushrod 5.0L Mustangs. As far as I know all EV1 style injectors had Jetronic connectors. EV6 is a newer thinner bodied injector. They are available with both style connectors. The Seimens Deka 60# injectors are a good example of this.
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:34 am

So USCAR has nothing to do with the upper diameter of the injector, only the connector? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I was getting confusing info while googling around...

Or does USCAR describe both the connector AND the body of the injector?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by Paulie » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:38 pm

USCAR is just the connector as far as I know
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by Paulie » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:43 pm

Read where it talks about electrical connectors https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9593-G302
1990 Mustang 5.0, HCI, Vortech S-trim, FRPP 42# inj., PMAS MH95, A9L, Moates Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate LC-1.

glaser67
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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by glaser67 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:50 pm

I ended up going with a set of AFIS injectors, and verified that I have fuel/spark to each cylinder. Injector issue solved, now I can get back to learning to tune.

Well now I'm burning oil which I can see/smell from exhaust. After successful compression and warm leak-down tests, I have concluded that the dumping of fuel in #1 has washed out those rings and I'll be pulling the engine out for a fresh hone and rings in #1, if not all cylinders since I have it apart.

No actual question to this post, but want to follow up for the knowledge of this site.

Thanks all,
-Glaser67
89' F-150, NA 5.0, MAF conversion - Quarterhorse w/Binary Editor, A9L, GUFB

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:29 pm

This may be a dumb question, but you said you did compression and leakdown tests. The result of these tests showed #1 was noticeably more leaky than the others? If so, by how much? I'm just curious as to how much it takes to result in the amount of oil leakage that results in visible oil burning from the exhaust.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by EDS50 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:53 pm

I would dump the oil, flush out the engine and put fresh oil and filter in it before I pulled the engine. Your oil is most likely full of fuel only.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

glaser67
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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by glaser67 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 pm

A) leak down and compression came within about 5-10% of the two other cylinders tested, in my oppinion (as a novice I suppose) eliminated the valves or hydrolock situation as the culprit.

B) I'll change the oil and put some miles on it and see what happens. I would feel worse pulling the engine for the wronge reason or unnecessary above all else. To your point, there was oil dripping from the clamp spots in the exhaust, so I figured maybe it needs burned off and the issue may be resolved as in not those rings. It was already thing less in the exhaust so I'll change the oil and report back.

Thanks guys,
-Glaser67
89' F-150, NA 5.0, MAF conversion - Quarterhorse w/Binary Editor, A9L, GUFB

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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by EDS50 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:34 pm

Leaky valve seals will allow oil into the exhaust also. Try changing oil and filter first and see if conditions improve. I would try 4 qts thicker oil and a bottle of lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer if you have a stock 302 oil pan.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

glaser67
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Re: DUMPING fuel in cylender #1 after injector install

Post by glaser67 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm

I don't disagree with your suggestion, however engine is full rebuild and heads as well, with 10-15k weekend warrior miles. The dumping of fuel in that cylinder only plus test results leads to washed rings, however if agree the suggestion of an oil change is worth the squeeze. I'll do concventional 10w30 or 40 and go from there. As always, I appreciate all your responses.
89' F-150, NA 5.0, MAF conversion - Quarterhorse w/Binary Editor, A9L, GUFB

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