CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

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RJCarp2
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CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:08 am

Hey guys – I haven’t posted in years. Looking for some help on this. I have a ’97 Cobra driveline transplanted in a ’62 Mercury Comet. So, no clutch switch, no speedo input. They are turned off in the tune. This is a CDAN4 strategy and I started off using decipha’s ZXA5 “base tune” since at the time (4 years ago) it was the only way I could figure out how to disable PATS. I tuned it all using Sailorbob’s CDAN4 strategy and all went well other than I could never figure out how to disable DFSO, or at least that’s what I chalked it up to.

Last week I pulled the stock 24# injectors and swapped in some 60’s as I’m going E85 in this thing. I also had some strategy issues and switched over to the Core Tuning strategy for CDAN4 since I have their complete strategy package. After all was said and done I still have this annoying fuel cut issue that I’d like to resolve. Please see attached for my current tune and datalog. Fuel is still slightly rich at lower MAFV (about 5%), but that doesn’t change what’s happening. Specifically, what is going on between elapsed time of 16.71 (throttle closes) to 20.2 seconds (dead lean) in the datalog?

This is an open loop datalog. I close the throttle, LAMBDA goes to around .95 and then linearly drifts to dead lean over around 3.5 seconds. During this time, MAF voltage doesn't do much of anything (1.2-1.3V...both decently tuned) and LAMBSE is 1.00. I think my tune parameters have DFSO disabled:
Lowest ECT for DFSO set to 254F
Lowest RPM for DFSO set to 6,000 rpm
Highest Load to enter DFSO set to 0
Closed throttle time to enter DFSO set to 32 seconds (max)

Side note - disregard the MAF readings in the datalog. The strategy is not reading that properly, but IMAF is proper MAF voltage.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
Rich
Attachments
ZXA5 Rev17TokenOL.BEB
(543.41 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
ZXA5 Rev17TokenOL 2018_Sep_06_22-17-28.csv
(170.84 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

sailorbob
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by sailorbob » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:55 pm

Are you allowing the use of the DFSO Profile Correction mode? If you are then the normal DFSO parameters won't disable DFSO if the relevant KAM correction factors have not matured.

RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:31 pm

No, I have that disabled.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by sailorbob » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:46 am

Are you sure it's going into DFSO?

RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:52 am

No, not positive. That's why I put "or ??" In the subject and attached the datalog. Fuel source is logged and lambse stays at 1. I really have no idea what's it's doing. DFSO is what it feels like and just a guess.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by sailorbob » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:29 am

I've just issued an updated definition that includes the DFSFLG flag so you will be able to see if DFSO is causing your issue.

RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:34 am

Thanks, Derek. I’m working with Clint now to see if he’ll convert my tunes that I finished using Core Tuning’s strategy into a format I can read with your strategy as well as credit me back the token I wasted while troubleshooting the payload issue with BE.

A little update on this. I pulled my wideband and put it back in closed loop. All is well, except for this darn “DFSO behavior”. The problem I have is, with no clutch switch and no speed sensor, if I clutch in during a DFSO event after dashpot has decayed it falls on its face and stalls.

In closed loop, as soon as it begins the “DFSO behavior”, LAMBSE will go richer and richer trying to recover it but it can’t. So closed loop is fighting whatever is happening.

As a hack fix I set my minimum pulse width to my value at idle and it seems to have fixed the problem, at least when warm. When cold, I need the min PW to be higher than what it is, and I don’t have that option.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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cgrey8
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:15 am

I could be completely off-base here, but my guess is you have a closed throttle leakage of air.

In my theory the leakage is minimal and dwarfed by the air coming in through the MAF and TB. However at closed throttle, the leakage becomes more prominent due to the lack of MAF flow AND higher vacuum in the intake. Common sources of this are:
  • Leaky brake booster
  • PCV intake air that's pulling from atmosphere instead of from metered air (and often no PCV valve to minimize PCV during high vac conditions). When people just put breathers on the valve covers instead of plumbing one cover into the MAF intake, you end up with the engine aspirating unmetered PCV air which can easily cause the engine to run lean at closed throttle conditions.
  • Stuck open canister purge (if present)
  • Some other vacuum leak
One way you can try to mitigate this is to bump your injector offset curve up to compensate. The offset curve is most prominent during light load (i.e. closed throttle) conditions. So bumping that up might be a way to mask/solve the problem. If it works, some might call that a hack, others might call it effective. As long as the engine gets what it needs, when it needs it, call it whatever you want.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:32 am

Wow, that is a simple yet interesting theory. I can definitely rule out everything on your list, but there’s one item that’s raising a big red flag in my head, and that is the original vacuum powered wiper reservoir from 1962. Since this is a big old reservoir/canister, it would also explain the delay that I always see during this event. It’s consistently about a 2 second delay, which might be the time it takes for the high vacuum condition to start pulling air through that canister. I’ll disconnect and cap that line tonight and see what happens.

Side note – these vacuum wipers have always been completely crap-tastic. This would be the kick in the butt I need to upgrade to electric wipers.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Well, I was so curious that I went out at lunch and tried this. It did not work. Same lean condition, closed loop operation, and stalling. I bumped the min PW back up to my idle value and the stalling goes away. I guess it's my "rich decel".
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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cgrey8
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:20 pm

My 89 Ranger has a vacuum-accumulator (aka mass-accumulator) as part of pneumatically controlled dash dampers. To keep it charged, they have a 1-way value between it and the intake manifold. That way low-vacuum conditions (e.g. high load, WOT, engine off) don't let the accumulator discharge. But the valve also serves as a charge regulator so when the unit is charging (i.e. giving up air into the intake), it's not allowed to charge so rapidly that it throws the EEC's fuel calculations all out of whack running the engine leaner than intended due to the unmetered air the accumulator is giving up. My guess is in 65, that was hardly a concern on a carb.

BTW the brake booster on power brakes is a similar kind of setup. But it can evacuate enough air to actually throw the mix. If I pump my brakes while at idle, I can watch my HEGOs and LAMBSEs respond to the lean condition created by the booster.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:59 pm

Yeap - i follow exactly what you're saying. During my test at lunch, I disconnected the vacuum wiper canister and capped the intake. It responded exactly the same.

This car has hydraboost brakes, so no vacuum brake booster. The PCV system is not there. Again, intake is capped, and I'm running breathers on each valve cover (B-head 4.6's like to suck up oil through the PCV and gum up the secondary valves). There's no emissions equipment. The HVAC controls are mechanical cables.

Literally the only thing running on vacuum is the fuel pressure regulator. I can't see it being a vacuum leak between the heads and intake. These gaskets are fairly idiot proof compared to the SBF stuff.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:30 pm

What keeps wanting me to look elsewhere other than the tune is the logs that show stable MAF and Injector PW. If it were in the tune, I'd expect the Inj PWs to have radically changed to cause the leanout. But I'm not seeing that which, to me, keeps telling me the problem isn't the tune. It's either in excess of unmetered air or a drop-off in fuel pressure.

I'm not saying it isn't the tune. It just doesn't seem like the tune is to blame with the info you have.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:55 pm

I hear ya. My only other thought is regarding the min PW. I’ve been running my min PW setting at 0. However, I see Siemens lists it at 1.5 ms for their 60s:

http://www.siemensdeka.com/wp-content/u ... 4961-2.jpg

Also, it looks like the % error gets really bad below 1.5 ms. When these situations happen, my demanded PW is around 0.6 to 0.8. What’s your experience in that range? Maybe there's too much error in the injectors down there that low. Maybe they aren't even opening? Maybe clipping PW at 1.0 or 1.2 is the right thing to do? That's a lot of maybes...
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:56 pm

That's the kind of thing that the Injector Offset is supposed to help with. In the GUFx strats, offset is basically your minimum PW based on voltage...as it's an adder. So even if the EEC calculated 0 amount of fuel, you'd get the offset value.

As for error in the 0.6-0.8 range, that doesn't surprise me. However I have never run injectors nearly that large. My first engine's injectors were 17lb (stock Explorer 5.0L) injectors. The 331 build runs 36lb injectors. I do see PWs that small, but they are while the engine is at closed throttle decel in the 2000+RPM range. By the time the engine is down near idle, the PWs are much closer to 1ms and tend to idle the engine around 600RPM with PWS in the 1.2-1.3ms range. I do have a fairly slow daspot as well as a hold on the minimum ISC with speeds over 3 MPH so if I decluch, the engine drops to around 700-800RPMs. It's not until the truck comes to a stop, that the ISC lets the engine settle into the 600s. This avoids a lot of the decel-conkouts I was getting. But my decels ARE lean. Although I believe that's how I have it setup so LAMBSEs work their way down and are proactively rich as the engine approaches idle speeds. The engine is quite tolerant of lean idle conditions as it'll maintain running with the WB reporting 1.20 lambda, although the RPMs...but you can tell it doesn't like that. But it wasn't tolerant of a dropping RPM with the AFRs that high. So I had to do something to get the LAMBSEs to enrichen things while the engine was high enough in the RPM range so that a stall wans't a factor. And by the time the engine was in the idle range, the LAMBSEs maintains a tolerable AFR. This strategy has worked out well.

Another thing I did was to proactively run my LAMBSEs rich while at idle so if I ever tipped-in, the LAMBSEs commanded a rich mix even if the engine was about to tip-in lean. It didn't matter, the rich was proactively rich by me running idle with low LAMBSE values AND preventing the EEC from learning that correction away via the KAMRFs. Although that strategy hasn't been nearly as necessary with this engine as it was with the 302. For the 302 and 331 to be so similar, they sure were different to tune. They definitely had noticeably different tuning personalities despite having a lot of similarities.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ashford
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by ashford » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:06 am

deka 60's are a bad injector at low pw, the "knee" in the flow chart is quite big. on the same engine and injector as yours i had a hell of a time getting a good idle( on a megasquirt too). what i had to do was lower the fuel pressure to around 30 and the small pulswidth behavior improved drastically.
in cdan4 min pw setting is commanded fuel ie not including offset time.
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RJCarp2
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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by RJCarp2 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:29 am

Well, I guess I have to agree. After playing around with this for a week I've come to the conclusion that these injectors just aren't happy at real low pulse widths. Specifically, in my car it seems like below 1 ms it gets ugly fast.

Fuel pressure is correct with and without vacuum line connected, so no issue there. Setting a min pw in the tune pretty much solves the issue. I had to best fit a pw that would keep all decent conditions relatively close to stoich. It's good enough to keep the engine from conking out on decel.

My only other option would be to lower the low slope and go really low with the break point to keep it all correct. I may play with that as I have time.

Ashford... I've never come across another person with a DOHC 4.6 in a first gen falcon or comet. If you want to swap some information, let me know via PM.
65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.

92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.

95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.

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Re: CDAN4 issue with DFSO or ??

Post by cbrown9064 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 am

I am running S-D 60s and it idles like a champ.

There is a "plug" on top of the throttle body. Mine blew out under boost and caused an "air leak" as it was after MAF. I just ended up tapping that hole out and putting a really big Allen set screw in it (looks good). If I remember right, there was a passage way under that plug, probably related to idle. Maybe???
1996 Cobra, Novi 2k, S-D 60 lb/hr, SCT BA5k, Paxton IC, QH, BE, Innovate AFR,

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