WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

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ryno22980
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WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:15 am

I decided to start learning on my mostly stock engine in preparation for dialing in an HCI combo that will be going on the car during the winter. I forced open loop and turned adaptives off. I then got my MAF curve close with my stock 19lb injectors. I then installed the stock injectors from a friend's 2011 Coyote Mustang as I intend to use them with my HCI. I entered the injector data for these from efidynotuning.com and the car ran very good right away. The wideband showed it to be a little rich at several MAF voltage points. I ran the datalog through EA and used the suggested MAF transfer. After the change, the wideband very closely matched LAMBSE at all points. I felt I was ready to try fine tuning using adaptives in closed loop.

After enabling closed loop and adaptives, I started paying attention to the HEGO voltages and closed loop flag. My HEGOs were consistantly reading .8V+ and the car would not go into closed loop at all (even fully warmed up). I remembered that my HEGOs were 30 year old originals, so I replaced them. However, the readings remained the same. I then checked HEGO voltage with my multimeter by backprobing the HEGO harness and using my header collector as the ground. The readings were a slightly higher voltage (even more rich) than what showed on the BE dashboard, but not enough to seem like the problem. With the engine idling, I pulled a vacuum line and watched both HEGOs drop lean (.1-.3V) and stay there. Plugged it back in and right back to pig rich (8V+). I have done a free air calibration on the wideband. I do have long tube headers with the stock HEGOs installed at the collectors. My wideband is just after the driver's side HEGO in the H-pipe. I have purposely tried to force the HEGOs close to .5V by pulling air in the MAF transfer just to see how the car would idle. When I did this, I could get HEGO 2 to hang near the switching point, but HEGO 1 would separate and read way lean. The car would idle rougher.

I still have a ton of reading/researching to do so sorry if I'm missing something dumb here. I don't have much time left before the weather turns too lousy to drive the car up here. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by jsa » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:51 am

HEGO'S maybe cold, does the situation improve at higher loads and rpm when the HEGO temps would increase.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
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ryno22980
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:02 pm

jsa wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:51 am
HEGO'S maybe cold, does the situation improve at higher loads and rpm when the HEGO temps would increase.
Thanks for the response, I used filters in EA to only show me the times HEGOs were below .5V in my latest cruising datalog. Very few cells came up and they were all in between 8-22% load and 1500-2200 RPMs. The wideband showed 1.02-1.03 lambda during that time and it was all during decel.

If it ever stops raining here, I'll get a good new datalog and post it.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by cgrey8 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:14 am

HEGOs cold? I thought when HEGOs were cold, they read lean, not rich. He's saying his HEGOs are reporting rich. So my thinking is the HEGOs are working just fine, even the 30 year old ones were.

More importantly to me is why is the engine not going into Closed Loop (CL). Transitioning into CL and attempting to run the engine in CL shouldn't have anything to do with what he's bolted to the engine (i.e. the long tubes or injectors). So I'd be more concerned in figuring out what in the tune is changed or needs to be changed to allow for CL.

Once the EEC is going CL and attempting to control the left and right bank independently, then he can talk more about what tuning things need to be done or what other problems there may be.

But ultimately, I have to say he's trying to approach tuning the right way by learning what a bone-stock tune looks like on a bone-stock engine...which is not how most people enter this experience. Although I would've experimented with watching the EEC enter CL with the stock injectors and stock tune. Gotten comfortable with what that looks like so when he went CL with a modification, he had a baseline of what CL is supposed to look like.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ryno22980
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:29 am

cgrey8 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:14 am
HEGOs cold? I thought when HEGOs were cold, they read lean, not rich. He's saying his HEGOs are reporting rich. So my thinking is the HEGOs are working just fine, even the 30 year old ones were.

More importantly to me is why is the engine not going into Closed Loop (CL). Transitioning into CL and attempting to run the engine in CL shouldn't have anything to do with what he's bolted to the engine (i.e. the long tubes or injectors). So I'd be more concerned in figuring out what in the tune is changed or needs to be changed to allow for CL.

Once the EEC is going CL and attempting to control the left and right bank independently, then he can talk more about what tuning things need to be done or what other problems there may be.

But ultimately, I have to say he's trying to approach tuning the right way by learning what a bone-stock tune looks like on a bone-stock engine...which is not how most people enter this experience. Although I would've experimented with watching the EEC enter CL with the stock injectors and stock tune. Gotten comfortable with what that looks like so when he went CL with a modification, he had a baseline of what CL is supposed to look like.
Thank you for your post. In hindsight, I really wish I would have done like you said and observed the EEC enter closed loop with everything stock. Or even make sure it was entering closed loop at all before I changed the MAF and injectors.

My limited understanding tells me it won't enter CL if the HEGOs don't switch enough times. If they are reading pegged rich, I would assume CL won't happen. Chicken or the egg?
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by cgrey8 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:58 pm

With all the delays associated with CL and the voltage checks, I set my minimum switch count to 1 (EGOCL1). With my setup, I enter CL after 30 seconds of runtime even cold. If I turn the ignition ON and give the HEGOs time to heat up before cranking, I get "snappy" HEGO behavior right off crank and thus could enter CL just a few seconds after crank. But my engine is a mild build relatively speaking.

However I've heard other people say they can't do that with their setup and usually the reason quoted is long-tube headers because the HEGOs stay cold too long. I've never understood why that would be an issue if the HEGO heaters are working correctly, but I say that have never owned, tuned, or even watched a long-tube engine datalog during cold crank. So there probably is something to it, but I just can't speak to they problems they faced were really related to cold HEGOs or if that's just the go-to reason when long-tubes are in the mix.

That said, it's important to remember what "cold HEGO" behavior is. Simply put, it's the HEGO reporting lean (low voltage) despite the mix being rich. The fact that you are getting 0.8v, I don't think you are suffering from "cold HEGOs." I suspect the problem with you not entering CL has more to do with your tune than the HEGOs.

Post up your tune and I'll see if there are some settings that could stand being changed to get you into CL faster.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ryno22980
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm

Here is my current tune and a zipped datalog from my drive home from work this afternoon. Thanks.
Attachments
10_7_2019 Datalog.7z
(739.04 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
89 A9M.BIN
(56 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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cgrey8
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by cgrey8 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:15 pm

I changed a few things that might or might not help. See how it works. Use BE to compare your old tune to the new one to see what I changed.
89 A9M_cmg.BIN
(56 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

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EDS50
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by EDS50 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:16 pm

ryno22980 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:15 am
I decided to start learning on my mostly stock engine in preparation for dialing in an HCI combo that will be going on the car during the winter. I forced open loop and turned adaptives off. I then got my MAF curve close with my stock 19lb injectors. I then installed the stock injectors from a friend's 2011 Coyote Mustang as I intend to use them with my HCI. I entered the injector data for these from efidynotuning.com and the car ran very good right away. The wideband showed it to be a little rich at several MAF voltage points. I ran the datalog through EA and used the suggested MAF transfer. After the change, the wideband very closely matched LAMBSE at all points. I felt I was ready to try fine tuning using adaptives in closed loop.

After enabling closed loop and adaptives, I started paying attention to the HEGO voltages and closed loop flag. My HEGOs were consistantly reading .8V+ and the car would not go into closed loop at all (even fully warmed up). I remembered that my HEGOs were 30 year old originals, so I replaced them. However, the readings remained the same. I then checked HEGO voltage with my multimeter by backprobing the HEGO harness and using my header collector as the ground. The readings were a slightly higher voltage (even more rich) than what showed on the BE dashboard, but not enough to seem like the problem. With the engine idling, I pulled a vacuum line and watched both HEGOs drop lean (.1-.3V) and stay there. Plugged it back in and right back to pig rich (8V+). I have done a free air calibration on the wideband. I do have long tube headers with the stock HEGOs installed at the collectors. My wideband is just after the driver's side HEGO in the H-pipe. I have purposely tried to force the HEGOs close to .5V by pulling air in the MAF transfer just to see how the car would idle. When I did this, I could get HEGO 2 to hang near the switching point, but HEGO 1 would separate and read way lean. The car would idle rougher.

I still have a ton of reading/researching to do so sorry if I'm missing something dumb here. I don't have much time left before the weather turns too lousy to drive the car up here. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
When you forced open loop and turned adaptive learning off, did you clear the kamrfs and learned fuel trims from the ecm before starting to tune your maf curve?
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

ryno22980
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:44 pm

cgrey8 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:15 pm
I changed a few things that might or might not help. See how it works. Use BE to compare your old tune to the new one to see what I changed.
89 A9M_cmg.BIN
Thanks, I will load it up and let you know.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

ryno22980
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Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:53 am

Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:02 pm

EDS50 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:16 pm

When you forced open loop and turned adaptive learning off, did you clear the kamrfs and learned fuel trims from the ecm before starting to tune your maf curve?
I'm trying to remember the exact order I did everything as this was a few months ago. The battery had been disconnected very recently before I forced OL and turned adaptives off, if not right before. I doubt any learned fuel trims had been accumulated at that point.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

ryno22980
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Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:53 am

Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:42 pm

cgrey8 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:15 pm
I changed a few things that might or might not help. See how it works. Use BE to compare your old tune to the new one to see what I changed.
89 A9M_cmg.BIN
I tried the new tune. Unfortunately, it did not seem to help. Here is my datalog after the changes.
Attachments
89 A9M_cmg 2019_Oct_08_05-26-51.zip
(1.35 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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cgrey8
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:25 am

Comparing your tune to mine, the only culprit I see is maybe FN320A. Put load numbers in there above 50 for the Load. Your tune has 0.

Other than that, I can't find anything else related to Closed Loop controls that's enough different than mine to explain you being stuck in OL.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

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ryno22980
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:40 pm

cgrey8 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:25 am
Comparing your tune to mine, the only culprit I see is maybe FN320A. Put load numbers in there above 50 for the Load. Your tune has 0.

Other than that, I can't find anything else related to Closed Loop controls that's enough different than mine to explain you being stuck in OL.
I don't recall ever changing those values, but you are right, they were different than my stock tune. I copied the stock values over to my tune and I will try it and let you know.

Thanks.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

ryno22980
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Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:53 am

Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by ryno22980 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:03 pm

It was too crappy out weather wise to take the car out, but I datalogged idle for 15 minutes in the garage after changing FN320A back to the stock values. It was successful, the car entered CL and the HEGO readings looked to be more in line with the WB readings. I started with an emissions delete version of the stock tune and FN320A was different for some reason and I never noticed.

Thank you cgrey8 for helping me through that issue so I can continue to take the next steps in my learning process.
1989 GT convertible, A9M GUFB, Quarterhorse, BE/EA, Innovate MTX-L wideband
smog & egr deleted, 75mm Pro-Flo MAF, 2011 Coyote injectors,Cobra intake, 65mm throttle body,
cold air intake, BBK long tubes, off-road H-pipe, Flowmaster catback

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cgrey8
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Re: WB stoich, but HEGOs showing rich

Post by cgrey8 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:25 pm

Now that you can get into CL, you can start figuring out what needs to be edited/tuned.

I don't know whether you just fixed FN320A in your original tune or if you are using my edits. But regardless, hopefully the edits I made are things you'll look closer at and decide which ones actually do make sense for you and which ones are best left at stock values. Like I said, I found years ago that I could enter CL far sooner than the stock values were allowing for and I haven't seen any proof that it's a bad strategy.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

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