[Overdriven]

Hello my specs are in my sig below. I have been battling with this issue for quite some time now. The collectors on both headers and the first set of cats glow red at idle and the car overheats pretty quickly (when the fans are off).

I checked for a vacume leak and nothing. It pulls 11 in of vacume at idle. My AFR's are switching between 14.2 and 15. My initial timing is set to 10 degrees advance. With Pip plug installed my timing varies between 20 and 28 degrees (verified by timing light). My Idle is at 850rpm. Air pump is hooked up. EGR is enabled and thermactor is enabled.

What else could cause this? Would injector timing do this? Would the engine even run if I stabbed the distributor 180 off, but still show that it was advanced when checked with a timing light?

My car never used to do this with the stock MAF and 19lb injectors. It used to run cool as a cucumber.

[cgrey8]

The high EGTs at the headers are confusing. However the CATs glowing is an indication that you are dumping fuel into the exhaust despite your Wideband's feedback. But based on the indication that you have an E303, my guess is that the engine is running way too rich. At idle, a Wideband will lie to you about the actual AFR with aggressive cams...common problem. The fix is to force Open Loop at idle and forcibly lean out the commanded AFRs. The Wideband may feedback 16s and 17s, but if this makes the engine run better, then that's what it wants. Keep in mind, actual AFRs as experienced in the combustion chamber are lower than the wideband is reporting. The leaner mix should calm down the hot CATs by reducing the amount of unburned fuel going out the exhaust.

I wouldn't have expected the rich condition to overheat the engine or to run the headers hot at idle. My best guess on that is the smog pump is pumping fresh air in at the heads and refueling the fire that is continuing to burn out of the combustion chambers due to the rich mix and thus has the pipes getting hot. More timing would probably also reduce the header temps, but would be covering up the real problem...rich mix.

So, try this in this order. First disable the smog pump in the tune and see if this reduces the header/CAT temps. If temps do drop, that somewhat confirms the theory that smog pump air is burning off fuel still in the exhaust due to a rich mix and the fix would be to move forward and force OL to lean out idle. Once you get idle leaned out, you can try re-activating the smog pump. EGTs may go back up at the CATs some but I wouldn't expect idle to glow them. I would think the header temps should not go up particularly once the thermactor mode switches to dumping at the CATs and not at the heads. If the EGTs are still higher than you'd like, you can try increasing your idle spark advance using the idle spark functions...NOT by twisting the dizzy, keep it at @10BTDC with the SPOUT pulled.

It is interesting that you point out that this didn't happen with your original 19lb injectors. Is that the only change you've done that caused this is injector upgrade? If so, that's also interesting info that might indicate you need to modify some injector timing values a bit. It could also indicate some problem with those new injectors (poor spray pattern for your heads, injectors leaking, etc).

[EDS50]

Hello my specs are in my sig below. I have been battling with this issue for quite some time now. The collectors on both headers and the first set of cats glow red at idle and the car overheats pretty quickly (when the fans are off).

I checked for a vacume leak and nothing. It pulls 11 in of vacume at idle. My AFR's are switching between 14.2 and 15. My initial timing is set to 10 degrees advance. With Pip plug installed my timing varies between 20 and 28 degrees (verified by timing light). My Idle is at 850rpm. Air pump is hooked up. EGR is enabled and thermactor is enabled.

What else could cause this? Would injector timing do this? Would the engine even run if I stabbed the distributor 180 off, but still show that it was advanced when checked with a timing light?

My car never used to do this with the stock MAF and 19lb injectors. It used to run cool as a cucumber.

Your timing should be set to 10 btdc with the spout out. The distributor could be off a tooth causing this. Bring the #1 cylinder to tdc and see where the rotor is facing. You mentioned your egts are high; do you actually have a egt and probe installed? The fact that the header collectors and cats are glowing are any obvious indicator something is wrong and as cgrey8 indicated could be fuel related. I am thinking its timing/tune related. How was the cam installed? Was it degreed or installed straight up? Installed advanced/retarded? This will alll play a roll. Check to see if the balancer is spun (if its a stock balancer)?

[Overdriven]

The high EGTs at the headers are confusing. However the CATs glowing is an indication that you are dumping fuel into the exhaust despite your Wideband's feedback. But based on the indication that you have an E303, my guess is that the engine is running way too rich. At idle, a Wideband will lie to you about the actual AFR with aggressive cams...common problem. The fix is to force Open Loop at idle and forcibly lean out the commanded AFRs. The Wideband may feedback 16s and 17s, but if this makes the engine run better, then that's what it wants. Keep in mind, actual AFRs as experienced in the combustion chamber are lower than the wideband is reporting. The leaner mix should calm down the hot CATs by reducing the amount of unburned fuel going out the exhaust.

I wouldn't have expected the rich condition to overheat the engine or to run the headers hot at idle. My best guess on that is the smog pump is pumping fresh air in at the heads and refueling the fire that is continuing to burn out of the combustion chambers due to the rich mix and thus has the pipes getting hot. More timing would probably also reduce the header temps, but would be covering up the real problem...rich mix.

So, try this in this order. First disable the smog pump in the tune and see if this reduces the header/CAT temps. If temps do drop, that somewhat confirms the theory that smog pump air is burning off fuel still in the exhaust due to a rich mix and the fix would be to move forward and force OL to lean out idle. Once you get idle leaned out, you can try re-activating the smog pump. EGTs may go back up at the CATs some but I wouldn't expect idle to glow them. I would think the header temps should not go up particularly once the thermactor mode switches to dumping at the CATs and not at the heads. If the EGTs are still higher than you'd like, you can try increasing your idle spark advance using the idle spark functions...NOT by twisting the dizzy, keep it at @10BTDC with the SPOUT pulled.

It is interesting that you point out that this didn't happen with your original 19lb injectors. Is that the only change you've done that caused this is injector upgrade? If so, that's also interesting info that might indicate you need to modify some injector timing values a bit. It could also indicate some problem with those new injectors (poor spray pattern for your heads, injectors leaking, etc).

Thanks cgrey8, I will play with it all weekend and see what I can come up with. What you said about the air pump causing a secondary burn makes a lot of sense.

Yes the hot exhaust issues only popped up once I added the injectors and maf. With the 19lbers and FMU the car ran very cool.

[EDS50]

I just realized you have a C&L 76mm with the stock electronics as a blow thru. Thats not a good combination for a blow through set up as the stock electronics are not designed to be used in blow thru applications. I would be curious to know what your maf xfer looks like.

[Overdriven]

Your timing should be set to 10 btdc with the spout out. The distributor could be off a tooth causing this. Bring the #1 cylinder to tdc and see where the rotor is facing. You mentioned your egts are high; do you actually have a egt and probe installed? The fact that the header collectors and cats are glowing are any obvious indicator something is wrong and as cgrey8 indicated could be fuel related. I am thinking its timing/tune related. How was the cam installed? Was it degreed or installed straight up? Installed advanced/retarded? This will alll play a roll. Check to see if the balancer is spun (if its a stock balancer)?

Thanks for the help EDS50, The initial timing was set at 10BTDC with the spout out. But I will pull the plugs and recheck where the rotor is on #1 tdc.

No I do not have a EGT probe, but glowing red is too hot, especially under no load.

The cam I did not install. This was a crate engine from ford racing. The ballancer is good, it didnt spin.

[EDS50]

Your timing should be set to 10 btdc with the spout out. The distributor could be off a tooth causing this. Bring the #1 cylinder to tdc and see where the rotor is facing. You mentioned your egts are high; do you actually have a egt and probe installed? The fact that the header collectors and cats are glowing are any obvious indicator something is wrong and as cgrey8 indicated could be fuel related. I am thinking its timing/tune related. How was the cam installed? Was it degreed or installed straight up? Installed advanced/retarded? This will alll play a roll. Check to see if the balancer is spun (if its a stock balancer)?

Thanks for the help EDS50, The initial timing was set at 10BTDC with the spout out. But I will pull the plugs and recheck where the rotor is on #1 tdc.

No I do not have a EGT probe, but glowing red is too hot, especially under no load.

The cam I did not install. This was a crate engine from ford racing. The ballancer is good, it didnt spin.

Good stuff. I am almost convinced its with your maf meter and or maf xfer. Where in the air inlet tract do you have the meter installed?

[Overdriven]

I just realized you have a C&L 76mm with the stock electronics as a blow thru. Thats not a good combination for a blow through set up as the stock electronics are not designed to be used in blow thru applications. I would be curious to know what your maf xfer looks like.

I have a 90mm Lmaf that I can plumb before the supercherger as a draw thru. Do you think that would be better than the C&L as a blow thru? I know Vortech's use the maf as a draw thru and dont seem to have issues. Or do you think I should hit up the junk yards this weekend and get an 05' slot maf and use it as a blow thru?

[Overdriven]

Good stuff. I am almost convinced its with your maf meter and or maf xfer. Where in the air inlet tract do you have the meter installed?

The meter is located in the passenger side fender about 1 foot back from the 90 degree turn out of the intercooler. It also has about 8 to 10 inches after it before it makes another 90 degree turn into the engine compartment. It was the straightest area I could plumb it into.

[EDS50]

Good stuff. I am almost convinced its with your maf meter and or maf xfer. Where in the air inlet tract do you have the meter installed?

The meter is located in the passenger side fender about 1 foot back from the 90 degree turn out of the intercooler. It also has about 8 to 10 inches after it before it makes another 90 degree turn into the engine compartment. It was the straightest area I could plumb it into.

That should be good. You have a straight shot in front of the meter which is important but the issue is the way the air is most likely swirling around and not through the sampling tube. You can try to "clock" the meter so the sampling tube is more in line with the curve from the 90 coming out of the intercooler. Assuming your set up is kinda like mine was I would try to clock the meter counter clockwise a little to see if that helps. If not clock it counter clockwise against the bend coming out of the 90 in an effort to try to position the sampling tube to grab the most air. I dont think the lightning maf will be sufficient for your power level as you will be close to maxxing out that meter not to mention that it is also designed to be used in a draw thry environment. I would look into a pmas protube for your set up.

[decipha]

before I could get the slot sensors so cheap I used to recommend putting the stock sensor in a straight pipe, never had an issue with it in blow or draw

slots are nice thats the route i'd go, hfslot w/ 3" pipe

It sounds like your issue is due to fueling, set the inj timing to all 500s set lolod to 33ish and multiply the maf at idle by .9 ish, see how she likes it, thats what i'd do, rem if u lean her out and egts increase your still below stoich, no matter which direction you go youll cool the egt, egt is highest at lambda 1 stoich

[cgrey8]

...if u lean her out and egts increase your still below stoich, no matter which direction you go youll cool the egt, egt is highest at lambda 1 stoich...

Under normal conditions of no smog pump, I'd agree for the most part. The only part I disagree with is everything I've read tends to indicate highest EGTs while at cruising loads (not idle) are just above lambda 1...somewhere ~1.05 lambda (15.0 AFR in 100% gasoline terms) hence why NOx production is worse at 1.05 than at 1.00. In fact, the NOx production is a product of a high temp burn.

But with smog pump air in the mix, I wouldn't be so sure that you can say that EGTs will go up as you lean it out. My bet is a rich mix WITH an addition of smog pump air could cause EGTs to go higher in the pipes and certainly higher in the CATs than they would if less unburned fuel was making it into the exhaust. Adding air without the fuel would only serve to cool the exhaust. But adding air to an exhaust mix with a substantial amount of unburned fuel allows the rest of the fuel to finish what didn't finish in the combustion chamber.

[NotchAbove]

Your distributor was not stabbed correctly. You timing is retarded, and hence your dumping raw fuel out the exhaust valve. You need to correct this immediately before you destroy the valves, and cats.

Pull the #1 plug, put your finger over the spark plug hole, with car in neutral, turn the engine over with a rachet (helps incredibly to take off the belt) when you feel air pushing your thumb off the hole, you are on the compression stroke of the cycle. At that point, stop turning it over, look at the balancer. Now continue to turn the engine until your at 10* BTDC. Stop and look at the direction of the distributor rotor, it needs to be pointing directly at the #1 spark plug wire terminal on the cap.

If not, your timing is not at 10* BTDC and you need to pull the distributor out at that point and without touching the rotation of the engine, put the distributor back in and ensure the rotor is pointing at the #1 spark plug wire terminal on the cap.

[NotchAbove]

Also few things to consider.

An E cam should pull more vacuum than 11".
An E cam should not need to have the injector timing manipulated in order for the car to run correctly.

[cgrey8]

Your distributor was not stabbed correctly. You timing is retarded, and hence your dumping raw fuel out the exhaust valve. You need to correct this immediately before you destroy the valves, and cats...

Wouldn't this also be accompanied by an unignorably horrible idle?

He also said the only changes he's made are MAF and Injectors. However if he did have to pull the dizzy for some reason and didn't consider including that detail, then this is a very likely problem. Although I was not aware that a mis-stabbed dizzy could report 10BTDC with a timing light even if stabbed wrong. I thought if it was stabbed a tooth off, you'd have to twist the dizzy further to one side or the other to attain 10BTDC...and if the dizzy can't twist far enough, you then have no choice but to restab to get it timed to 10. Is that not true?

I guess it's also possible he accidentally timed it to 10ATDC. But again, that would cause a horrible idle, wouldn't it? But if that is what he did, that certainly would explain the glowing headers, overheated CATs, and the low vacuum.

[NotchAbove]

I gotta be honest. I never tried to time an engine that had the distributor incorrectly installed, so I really don't know what the timing gun will show.

My assumption is based on the glowing cats and low vaccum. I don't remember seeing anything about idle.

[cgrey8]

...The collectors on both headers and the first set of cats glow red at idle and the car overheats pretty quickly...

Although he didn't indicate if the engine was running horribly or not.

[NotchAbove]

...The collectors on both headers and the first set of cats glow red at idle and the car overheats pretty quickly...

Although he didn't indicate if the engine was running horribly or not.

Right and right, that doesn't mean its idling smooth or good at all. That's low vacuum for an E cam, and I would be the idle quality is poor.

[cgrey8]

If it's 10 retarded instead of 10 advanced, I'd think the same thing.

[Overdriven]

Ok so I played with it all weekend and here's what I came up with.

1. Distributor was correctly installed
2. The timing was correct @ 10btdc with spout out
3. Disconnected the air pump. The exhaust was still getting hot, but not cherry red hot. And the exhaust was still not smelling right.
4. Rechecked for a vacume leak. I found a major vacume leak under the upper manifold. My initial post was wrong I guess. A vacume cap was missing off of one of the 2000 vacume ports. Whats weird is that when I sprayed water around the gasket area the idle never changed.
5. I plugged it up and fired the car up and noticed an immediate change in idle quality. But now the afr's are reading 11 to 1!!
6. Adjusted Maf curve to read an afr 14.7 - 15.0 at idle.

Cats are not hot anymore, the exhaust smells like it should and it pulls 14 inches of vacume now and will idle all the way down to 600 rpm w/ out stalling. So thank you everyone for the suggestions. I pulled from everyones suggestions a little bit to figure this out.

Stupid me not putting a cap over a vacume port!!

[EDS50]

Ok so I played with it all weekend and here's what I came up with.

1. Distributor was correctly installed
2. The timing was correct @ 10btdc with spout out
3. Disconnected the air pump. The exhaust was still getting hot, but not cherry red hot. And the exhaust was still not smelling right.
4. Rechecked for a vacume leak. I found a major vacume leak under the upper manifold. My initial post was wrong I guess. A vacume cap was missing off of one of the 2000 vacume ports. Whats weird is that when I sprayed water around the gasket area the idle never changed.
5. I plugged it up and fired the car up and noticed an immediate change in idle quality. But now the afr's are reading 11 to 1!!
6. Adjusted Maf curve to read an afr 14.7 - 15.0 at idle.

Cats are not hot anymore, the exhaust smells like it should and it pulls 14 inches of vacume now and will idle all the way down to 600 rpm w/ out stalling. So thank you everyone for the suggestions. I pulled from everyones suggestions a little bit to figure this out.

Stupid me not putting a cap over a vacume port!!

Glad you got it figured out. When testing for vacuum leaks use a can of brakeclean instead of water. When the brakeclean is sprayed in an area where there is a vacuum leak the idle will go up until the brakeclean dissipates.