CBAZA (T4M0) and EDIS - Page 2

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:40 pm

my signature came from my cam sensor which on the supercoupe is the same between the tfi and the edis

im pretty sure the ecu was controlling the timing because without major swinging at idle it will surge due to the damn near 600 lift/300 duration cam i have in it

the 95 supercoupe is still eec4, the 95 thunderbird is eec5

for edis to work properly at a minimum the following must be altered:

v_cpuok_ena enables edis test
ign_type obvious needs to be changed to edis "ldr_dis_sp"
mhpfd signature pip disable

if i get a chance i'll go do some testing, its a PITA to get to the ecu with my crossovers mounted for my components up front so it definitely won't be today

bender460 · Post by **bender460** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:13 pm

vristang wrote:
Shaker666 wrote: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1949&hilit=Explorer+EDIS&start=120
I have... and I keep going back through it... there's a lot to take in there...

Right now, it looks like the CID sensor may be the toughest part to sort out since I am doing this on a 4-cyl block.
I've only found reference to 1 4-cyl CID sensor, but that was supposedly only used on a California model 2.3 Ranger.
I'm sure I can get something to work, but I haven't had much time to look into it just yet... too much work, not enough play...

I researched this a couple years ago.. Not for a four but... One way it may work is to just use the stock PIP sensor. Basically replace the cap and rotor with a block off plate. Ditch the tfi sensor and just send the PIP to the ecu. At this point your sequential fuel is just as it was.

I'm unsure of the ecu stuff but maybe just tune ign_type for the proper output to the edis?

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:13 pm

bender460 wrote:
vristang wrote:
Shaker666 wrote: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1949&hilit=Explorer+EDIS&start=120
I have... and I keep going back through it... there's a lot to take in there...

Right now, it looks like the CID sensor may be the toughest part to sort out since I am doing this on a 4-cyl block.
I've only found reference to 1 4-cyl CID sensor, but that was supposedly only used on a California model 2.3 Ranger.
I'm sure I can get something to work, but I haven't had much time to look into it just yet... too much work, not enough play...

I researched this a couple years ago.. Not for a four but... One way it may work is to just use the stock PIP sensor. Basically replace the cap and rotor with a block off plate. Ditch the tfi sensor and just send the PIP to the ecu. At this point your sequential fuel is just as it was.

I'm unsure of the ecu stuff but maybe just tune ign_type for the proper output to the edis?

I did pick up the Ranger CID sensor.

Of course this lead to a couple more questions...

1 - This CID has 4 pins, and most others I've seen have 3. Still looking for a pinout of this CID?
2 - How do I orient this thing in the block? I'm guessing I'll need to remove the cap on the CID...

Right now, I'm held on getting a 36-1 wheel installed on the crank pulley. Still looking for a good option.
The trigger wheel will also require modification of how the billet timing indicator mounts...

I did mount the coil packs on the valve cover and have the intake manifold (sourced from a 93 Mustang) ready for installation.

Here are parameters listed in this thread (for my own convenience later, lol)
v_cpuok_ena enables edis test
ign_type obvious needs to be changed to edis "ldr_dis_sp"
mhpfd signature pip disable

CCDSW = Calibration Switch to select Computer Controlled Dwell. (1 = Computer Controlled Dwell; 0 = TFI Controlled Dwell)
Does CCDSW need to be changed? I thought the EDIS controlled dwell? Or does the ecu?

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:02 am

Well, I've hit a road block...

I'm looking for a good solution for mounting the 36-1 wheel to my crank pulley.

The ID of my crank pulley is 1.264" (same as the crank nose diameter)
The OD of the pulley is 1.775"

I could use a wheel with an ID of 1.264"
or, I could use a wheel with an ID of 1.775" or slightly smaller

I'm not finding squat though...
Any suggestions?

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:28 pm

edis module controls dwell

why not just snatch a 99 5.0L edis explorer setup?

timing cover, trigger, and possibly balancer/wheel??

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:16 pm

decipha wrote: why not just snatch a 99 5.0L edis explorer

because I'm the weirdo that's running a 2.3 with a T4M0...
5.0 stuff doesn't fit...

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:21 am

my mistake, i didn't realize who i was replying to

i don't see why either one would make a difference just be sure you have the missing tooth offset in the correct orientation IT DOES NOT GO TO TDC

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:07 am

I have the EDIS4 mounted in the engine bay, and pulled the tfi/coil harness loose... and ran it over to where the EDIS4 is mounted.

Just need to verify some pinouts, as most of the diagrams I find are not geared toward EDIS ignitions.

EDIS pin1 (PIP) runs to ECU pin56
EDIS pin3 - Not Used
EDIS pin3 (SAW) runs to ECU pin36 - used to be the SPOUT signal
EDIS pin4 - Not Used
EDIS pin5 (VR-) runs to VR negative
EDIS pin6 (VR+) runs to VR positive
EDIS pin7 Shield for VR and SAW/PIP
EDIS pin8 runs to ECU pin 37/57
EDIS pin9 runs to Ground near module
EDIS pin10 runs to coil pin 3
EDIS pin11 runs to tach
EDIS pin12 runs to coil pin 1

Questions...
1. I am shooting from the hip on EDIS pin 3 being the old SPOUT pin on the ecu. Can this be confirmed, or am I way off?

2. How do I identify the positive and negative of the my VR sensor?

3. The factory tach wiring in my '87 LX had a resistor in the line. Do I still need this with the EDIS4?

4. Who am I kidding... every one of those is a bit of a guess

The trigger wheel should be here wednesday, they I need to take it to a shop to have it mounted up...

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:36 am

that is correct pin 3 is spout

the vr shouldn't make a difference, or so i think

EDIS.jpg

EFI-Unlimited · Post by **EFI-Unlimited** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:11 pm

In theory, the VR polarity shouldn't matter, as the circuitry is supposed to detect the "zero crossing". In reality, most zero cross detection circuits only detect zero crossing in one direction, which makes the sensor polarity sensitive.

It will run if the polarity is backwards, but the trigger angle could be off by ~5deg. Your best bet is to verify your 10 degrees of static advance with the saw/spout disconnected.

If you are using a non factory balancer and pointer, then what you need to confirm with a timing light is that 10 deg fires in the middle of a tooth, not a valley.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:31 pm

... and that tooth should be the tooth that is centered on the TDC mark on my crank pulley, correct?

Thanks Brian!

EFI-Unlimited · Post by **EFI-Unlimited** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:30 pm

vristang wrote:... and that tooth should be the tooth that is centered on the TDC mark on my crank pulley, correct?

Not necessarily. If you crank pickup and timing pointer are aligned together, then that tooth should be aligned with 10btdc. If the pickup and pointer are not aligned, (like the oem explorer), then the relationship between the trigger wheel and the balancer marks are going to be a function of the offset of the pointer and pickup.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:24 pm

i'd hold her at 3k and check timing

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:16 pm

I changed the plan and am going to cut a new keyway

Anyone know if the missing tooth should be centered on the VRS, or if the teeth trigger on rising or falling edge?

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm

Too late...
I centered on the blank, just like the existing keyway was...

In the Definition for CBAZA, is there a parameter to correct for my keyway being a degree or 2 off?
Just wondering...

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:22 pm

no strategy has a tdc offset that im aware of

you can maybe send a nice pm to sailorbob and ask if he would be so kind to add it for you

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:37 am

So, tomorrow is the wiring day...

I made a wire diagram of what I plan to do.
Please let me know if my plan is doomed

http://seattleblueovals.com/index.php?a ... 2234;image

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:35 am

looks promising

be sure the ecu relay is new and wiring in good condition

EFI-Unlimited · Post by **EFI-Unlimited** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:16 pm

vristang wrote:?..In the Definition for CBAZA, is there a parameter to correct for my keyway being a degree or 2 off?
Just wondering...

I don't believe the EEC-V can adjust the trigger offset, as the ignition is done by an external EDIS chip in the PCM. The later PowerPC Bsed stuff however, can be changed.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited

Darkstar · Post by **Darkstar** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:45 pm

Guys, I'm a new user but have been following this EDIS on CBAZA discussion for a while. I have a '95 Cobra w/408, CBAZA (J4J1) and TwEECer, just finished converting to EDIS, fired first time today. Mechanical setup consists of a home-built copy of the Explorer cam sync (to fit the 351W block), fabbed crank sensor mount and Windstar crank sensor, Windstar 36-1 trigger wheel and 95 MkVIII EDIS module. I made the wiring harness as well. Cam sensor is connected to EEC pins 24 (+) and 46 (-). Scalars are "Ignition Cylindr ID Present = 1 and ignition_type = 4. This setup runs and advances timing, but apparently not correctly. Timing at idle is defaulted at 10 degrees, jumps significantly off idle, but not to the correct value (engine actually runs better with SPOUT plug out). I'm guessing that I have missed something along the way, or maybe CBAZA isn't going to play after all and I'll have to go CZAJL (already running that on my 70 Bronco 5.0). Suggestions? I'll keep y'all up-to-date.

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:44 pm

Well that doesn't give me warm fuzzies...
I was hoping for my first start to be today, but it looks like tomorrow is more likely...

Where did you send the rest of the edis8 wires?

Are you sure you have the missing tooth crossing the VRS at the correct crank angle?

Darkstar · Post by **Darkstar** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:40 pm

A good question, thanks...but I think if the crank angle were off I wouldn't get 10 degrees BTC with the spout plug out, so that isn't likely the issue (BTW, you can correct for a slight miss in crank sensor alignment in CBAZA by adding (subtracting) timing from your base curve in the scaler "Spark Adder -- Global"). But as has been said many times, that base spark angle is just a number, as long as it is in the ballpark and you know where it is, you're ok, you're probably going to mess with the timing tables anyway.

I'll save you the coil connections part, the rest of the EDIS 8 wires map this way:

EDIS Pin 1 (PIP) --> EEC Pin 56
EDIS Pin 2 (IDM) --> EEC Pin 4
EDIS Pin 3 (SPOUT) --> EEC Pin 36
EDIS Pin 4 (CPS -) --> Crank Position Sensor
EDIS Pin 5 (CPS +) --> Crank Position Sensor
EDIS Pin 6 (Power) --> Ign Key (red/green)
EDIS Pin 7 (IGN Ground) --> EEC Pin 16

Do be careful on crank position sensor polarity, I got it backward on my first vehicle with a coil pack conversion (70 Bronco), you will probably get a no-run and have to re-pin. Again, it is no big deal except for the time wasted and beating yourself up over missing something simple.

One more item, it appears we have implemented the cam sensor ground differently, I think I saw in your wiring diagram EEC pin 16 (Ignition ground), while I used EEC pin 46 (signal return). All of the factory wiring diagrams I have seen show the cam sensor (-) connected to the gray/red signal return system, including the one my Bronco uses, which is a cross between the 93-95 Lincoln MkVIII and later Explorer hardware. I'd like to think I'm wrong and that is what my problem is, but you know it can't be that simple...

EFI-Unlimited · Post by **EFI-Unlimited** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:31 pm

I've got my popcorn ready. I'm interested to see if you guys can really get it to work correctly.

- 1) enable sawp output
- 2) functioning CID, with sequential operation

Brian
EFI-Unlimited

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:47 am

Ok, so how do I know the polarity of my VRS (crank position sensor)?
I have not found a decent plug pinout for the sensor itself, so I am just guessing... but, give me a 50/50 chance and I'll get it wrong 90% of the time...

As for pin 46 vs 16... I'll have to look at it again with fresh eyes tomorrow...
I'm piecing together info from multiple sources, from multiple vehicles... and there is some guesswork involved...

Are you getting any error codes?
With the IDM hooked up, you should have some level of diagnostics???
My thinking was... what would cause the edis to flip out... out of range crank trigger would???

EDIS Pin 6 (Power) --> Ign Key (red/green)

Are you using Ign Key as opposed to my pin 37/57 power?
I need to find an edis8 diagram to know what your pinouts are...

Thanks for posting your experiences... it is making me reconsider some of my assumptions...

jason

Darkstar · Post by **Darkstar** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:54 am

Jason,
Nice catch on my power to the EDIS module, I had not noticed the difference, assumed that the 95 V6 and V8 cars were the same, but they are not. I located my EDIS right where the TFI module used to be (on a bracket I sourced from a V6 car), then connected all of the existing pins to the EDIS. But the vehicles that use EDIS DO use VPWR (same as EEC pins 37 and 57), where the 95 V8 cars power the TFI from the ignition switch. I don't think it matters much, but I will probably rewire that to use VPWR.

I took a quick peek at your pics of the VR sensor you are using for crank position, the sensor is a different shape, but it uses the same connector as the Explorer 5.0 sensor and the Windstar 3.8 sensor, so I think I can be confident in telling you that looking at the back of the harness side connector (wires sticking out toward you)with the locking clip up, the positive lead is on the right and the negative on the left. If you sourced your connector from a salvage yard and got a bit of factory wire with it, the color codes for the positive wire are blue/orange or black/pink.

As for why I'm getting strange timing with the SPOUT plug in, I think the issue is that I don't have the proper setup in the EEC yet so that it isn't recognizing the cam signal or is not calculating SAW correctly. I don't know if that means I haven't found all the right scalars yet, or if CBAZA is not capable, although that seems out of character with what Ford was doing in every other processor at the time. I have not had a chance to check for codes yet. Thanks for your interest and council!
Dave

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:23 am

changing the global spark modifier will not compensate for the crank trigger being off saftot will still reflect that change

pin#16 on the cbaza ecu is in fact the cam sensor return/ignition ground

dave, did you disable the signature pip dutycycle scalar "MHPFD"
you must also make sure the edis test is enabled scalar "V_CPUOK_ENA"
and dwell has to be disabled

Darkstar · Post by **Darkstar** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:48 am

A small correction to that last post, blue with an orange stripe is the factory color code for the cam position sensor (+) wire, which, if we're talking about a VR-type sensor, is also on the right side looking at the back of the connector with the clip up...in fact they use the same connector.

That brings me to another interesting question. Unless I'm missing something, at least in the CalEdit version of CBAZA, there are only two scalers to "mess with" to tell the EEC that there is an EDIS atached, one is "ignition cyl ID present" and teh other is "ignition type". This is unlike the A9-series, which seem to have several. So either something is missing there, or the "ignition cylinder ID present" scaler has to convey more information. It has to tell the EEC to look for a CID signal (not to expect a signature PIP), and it needs to tell it what sensor technology is used, Hall or VR. In an A9 the options are "0" for signature PIP and "1" for a separate CID signal in one scalar and "0" for Hall and "1" for VR in another scalar. Is it possible that on CBAZA it is "0" for signature PIP, "1" for Hall CID and maybe "2" for VR-type CID? Just thinking out loud here, I haven't seen anything that suggests that there is a "2" option available. For the record, I'm using a VR-style cam sensor (today anyway...)

vristang · Post by **vristang** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:49 pm

Dave, here is a list of the parameters that have been mentioned in this thread

v_cpuok_ena enables edis test
ign_type obvious needs to be changed to edis "ldr_dis_sp"
mhpfd signature pip disable

CCDSW = Calibration Switch to select Computer Controlled Dwell. (1 = Computer Controlled Dwell; 0 = TFI Controlled Dwell)

If you can't find all of those parameters, then your definition file may be inadequate.
Are you using the standard CBAZA definition, or the one of the .cry definitions?

decipha · Post by **decipha** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:59 pm

you can't properly tune cbaza with caledits current strategy file

best bet would be to contact sailorbob for the full cbaza definition and get be2010 from clint if you hadn't already

Darkstar · Post by **Darkstar** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:12 pm

Thanks guys, I think we have come to the same conclusion, CalEdit isn't going to cut it here. When I get a few minutes later I'll start chasing more capable software..

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