[cajohnson]

Hello, this is my first time here.

I have a '96 F-350 w/ 460, speed density system. I am looking to convert it to a mass air system, and want to keep it as stock looking as possible.

I found a JY in California that has the complete CA 460 MAF intake plumbing system (air box, MAF, hoses, 1-into-2 adapter). The man says he also has the original ecm from this truck, but I am finding conflicting info as to whether this is a SD ecm or a mass air ecm. The part number on the unit is F6TF-12A650-AND, and the code is "GLU3". It is also EEC-V and ODBII.

Elsewhere on this site I found a terse reference saying that the GLU3 was SD, but it also says that the FEZ3 (F6TF-12A650-AMD) is SD, though it is widely known that ecm is mass-air for the 460 and E40D.

These guys that think they have 460 mass air ecms want a small fortune for them, so I can't risk buying this without knowing what it's real application is.

Thanks in advance for any help on this. I hope I haven't put this in the wrong forum!

Chris Johnson

[decipha]

hey chris welcome to the forum

I cant tell you any specifics on those era ecus since ive never dealt with any of them, perhaps someone else can chime in and gleam some useful info

however, Id recommend ditching that ecu and snatching a 99-04 f250 ecu, they are coil on plug with e4od control and are a dime a dozen

youll have just as much tuning support for either ecu

if your feeling courageous you can try a cdan4 ecu and reprogram it for the e4, it may not work though, if u have a pull a part nearby their usually only $15 for an ecu

[cajohnson]

Thank you for your comments!

My truck actually has the ZF 5-speed, so controlling the trans isn't an issue. I mentioned the E40D just because the classic 460 mass air ecm does support that trans.

I have had three SD diesels, and know nothing about the gas engines after the 460. I assume you are referring to the Triton V-8 as a source of ecm? I had not considered that. Are these all mass air systems?

I am 70 miles from the closest JY, and they don't have anything that new. The closest PNP is more than 200 miles away! I'm in SW Colorado, so I do most of my bone yard research on the 'net, and now you've given me a whole 'nother thing to consider.

So, what would make an ecm from a Triton V8 a better choice? You brought it up, so now you have to educate me!

Chris

[decipha]

I thought u needed it for the e4od since u have a 5spd just get a cdan4 ecu

[TwinSCs]

There are only 2 hardware codes for the 96-97 OBD2 trucks. Ml1-441, and ML1-442 IIRC. I don't know the difference between the 2, probably just E4OD support, which it doesn't sound like is an issue for you.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't have to be from a 460 to run a 460 tune. You can take it from a 5.0 or 5.8 if the 460 versions are commanding top dollar. It'll be the same PCM, just a different calibration and you'll probably be tuning it anyway.

[cajohnson]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

However, please understand that I don't know everything on this subject yet. There is so much misleading, or out-right contradictory information out there. I'm trying desperately to connect all the dots, but not having much luck. When you say "cdan4", I don't know what you are referring to, where it comes from, or how to research it. Likewise "Ml1-441, and ML1-442" are equally foreign. I 've got part numbers and catch codes, but have no idea what those names mean, or how they relate to the ECMs I'm looking at.

If at all possible, please make a connection between these things and what I have referred to. Otherwise I don't know how to use the information you have given me.

Again, thank you for your help.

Chris Johnson

[LeadHead]

Keep in mind, that the OBD-II MAF 460 computers are completely TFI based for fuel and spark. There are no high-tooth-count trigger wheels for 460s, so if you want to run a modern CoP ECU, you're going to have to adapt something, as I'm pretty sure they don't support TFI/PIP inputs for timing.

Also, there's another gotcha with the OBD-II 460 MAF computers - it requires a special 4 tooth trigger wheel on the crank for misfire monitoring. You will also need the front cover off a MAF 460, as the standard front covers do not have the boss to mount the crank sensor. The truck will run fine without the sensor, but you will get a check engine light unless you tune it.

[cajohnson]

Thanks Leadhead, you are confirming what I was starting to suspect.

I understand it is fairly common to use an '88 - '93 Mustang 5.0 ECU on a standard 460 speed density system to make the conversion to mass air, but poking around implies that you are still stuck with the TFI and distributor. Heck, I just finished putting the EDIS and Mega-Jolt ignition system on my (originally DSII) '86 F-350's 460!

I made an "externally-balanced, 460-specific" 36-1 trigger wheel for the '86. The truck is running great (and smoother too!), but I'm still tuning the ignition timing and still need to make a permanent bracket for the VR sensor.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/13263 ... ect-2.html

Back to the original topic of the ECM. More and more info suggests that it, indeed, is a California mass air ECM. It is the 104 pin connector, and EEC-V. As I am informed, all non-CA (Federal) 460s remained "speed density" and retained the 60 pin ECMs.

Additionally, I was plowing through Rock Auto's offerings (one of my favorite research sites) and noted a little bit of an oddity with the ECM part numbers. In the descriptions of the different units, they frequently say "F6TF-12A650-xxx", but when cross-referencing to Ford part numbers, they would say "F6TZ-12A650-xxx". Just for the heck of it, I did a search on this ECM using the F6TZ prefix and did find an application using it; specifically the 1996 F-250 and F-350 trucks with the 460.

This, of course, begs the question: what is the difference between F6TF and F6TZ on these items?

Chris

[cajohnson]

Because of the requirement to retain the TFI ignition and, inversely, the inability to eliminate the distributor or use a better ignition system, the mass air conversion using the factory ECM loses a little bit of its appeal. Combined with the fact that this ECM uses the 104 pin connector instead of the SD ECM's 60 pin, the wiring for the conversion would be "substantial". If I've got it right, the mass air system for the 460 also requires three O2 sensors too. And, on top of everything else, you have to mount a non-typical crank trigger wheel and sensor to a front cover that doesn't want it.

I'll bet I've read of at least 100 different folks wanting to do the 460 mass air conversion using these specialized parts, but I haven't read of a single person that has actually done it. Perhaps, now, I know why.

So, let's back up for a minute. What I want (as well as a number of other folks) is a mass-air system on a 460. Other requirements are:

1. supports SEFI
2. supports distributor-less ignitions. I really like EDIS, and will tolerate COP/CNP systems.
3. supports TCU transmission(s)
4. should allow operator tuning, via the typical methods
5. should allow for firmware upgrades
6. etc.

I am an old-time embedded systems programmer by trade. I prefer to use assembly, and prefer to not have an OS in the way of things. I don't want to write an EFI app from the ground up, but wouldn't mind adding some functionality to an existing system. Is it possible to modify the executable firmware in the pre-ODBII ECMs? Likewise, I know the executable firmware can be "reflashed" in the ODBII ECMS, but are any of the firmwares available in any form? I'm pretty good at disassembling "bin" files too, if that is of any use.

So, is any of this do-able?

Thanks,

Chris J.

----------------------------
EDIT: I just stumbled across this:
http://info.efidynotuning.com/ignition.htm

This indicates that at least some of these ECMs are capable of supporting EDIS! Can anybody elaborate on where these ECMs come from?

Thanks

[LeadHead]

EEC-IV systems can't be flashed. They use a custom ROM chips that have some weird combined data/address bus, because Ford wanted to save on I/O. You can get "permanent" chips that plug into the J3 port, which disables the EEC's internal ROM.

I assume it would be possible to theoretically to write your own 8085 assembly from scratch and burn it into a chip, but seesh that's a lot of work.

[cajohnson]

I assume it would be possible to theoretically to write your own 8085 assembly from scratch and burn it into a chip, but seesh that's a lot of work.

And not what I want to do. There's no point in re-inventing the wheel, I just want to make it a little more round.

I've read that the processor is an 8061, but have not researched it. If it uses the same instruction set as the 8085, that would make life easier as this was a fairly popular embedded processor back in the day. I did a project some years ago to port a bunch of 8085 assembly code to C to run on an x86 machine.

I've also seen some disparaging comments about the multiplexed bus. Is this a unique implementation of some type? There were many processors that did this to save pins.

I guess the most important question at this point is: is there firmware (even if it has to be disassembled) for any of the EEC-IV and/or EEC-V ODBII ECMs?

[decipha]

it sounds like your more familiar with GM tuning and what not

ford doesnt exactly run an OS like GM does, there is no known or publically released custom operating systems for any ford ecu that im aware of, the closest anyone has come to anything of that nature would be some people have copied code from other strategies and inserted them into their own to make their own hacked up strategy

Ford uses a completely different OS or "strategy" on just about every vehicle, even more troubling is that ford has even used multiple different OS's or 'strategies' on even the same model year vehicles in some cases.

For example you can have two different 01 GTs that are identical with the same exact features and all, but yet they may have two completely different strategies so attempting to modify one tune with the others definition will give you corrupt data.

Id recommend a 99-01 GT ecu, but Ive been partial to them lately

[LeadHead]

Err yea sorry, It's an 8061, which is similar to the 8096.

But yeah, from what I understand, the EEC-IV systems don't have a bootloader/OS or anything like that to get things going. They just startup, and begin reading from the main ROM immediately. I guess in theory you could even just write your own 8061 code, burn it to a chip and use an EEC-IV as a general purpose controller to do whatever you want, although I believe it has some oddities in how it handles accessing the I/O in order to reduce CPU load (and pin count)

I've also seen some disparaging comments about the multiplexed bus. Is this a unique implementation of some type? There were many processors that did this to save pins.

I believe GM used fairly generic ROM/Flash chips until recently, which were easy to remove, program and replace with your own code. The multiplexed data/address bus Ford used made finding compatible memory chips a bit harder, but considering plug in programmable chips exist for EEC-IV/V systems now, it obviously wasn't impossible.

[cajohnson]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm familiar with GM stuff only to the point of putting a 7427 on my Jeep, and using Moates and TunerPro as the means. In that case only tuning was involved, and used existing files to do it. The GM 7427 is a TBI speed-density system in its stock form, but has been hacked to support mass air and appears to work very well. I have not done the mass air conversion on my particular system in the Jeep though.

With my F-350/460 I want to enhance the functionality to include SEFI and mass-air. If there is a well-supported version of EEC-IV that can do this and also support EDIS, then I am facing only a "tuning" and relatively minor hardware project. If not, then is there a well-supported EEC-V ECM that meets these same requirements?

If not, then is there firmware (either IV or V) that can be modified by me to affect this?

[decipha]

theres tons of ecus that can do what you want

EDIS is used on a great many vehicles

93 lincoln mark 8 czajl
89-93 foxbody gufb (change a few parameters)
96-97 cdan4 towncar coug tbird stang

cdan4 would get my vote out of all of those above

[Stengun]

Howdy cajohnson,

There are a couple of us that have done EEC-V coilpack conversions to 351W and since Ford never made a 351W with EDIS we had to fab stuff too.

I keep kicking around the idea of building a 460 for my 97 F-150 Flareside and if I do it will be an EEC-V EDIS combo.

I'll start with a 5.4 Triton engine wiring harness and modify it to fit my needs. It's no biggie since I took a 4.6 60 pin harness and modified it into a 104 pin harness.

I'm currently using an EEC-V ECU with CDAN4 strategy and since I'm fimiliar with it that's what I would use again.

There are numerous 36-1 crank trigger wheels on the market and a VR sensor bracket is easy to fab up.

Converting a distributor into a VR cam sensor isn't an issue either, already been there, done that.

Paul

[cajohnson]

Yes, I'm convinced to research the CDAN4 strategy. It's EEC-V and ODBII, supports EDIS and MAF and SEFI, and well understood and supported.

But I've still got a problem. I thought I understood some things yesterday but, today, I'm back to feeling quite ignorant. This is largely due to not knowing how to identify a CDAN4 ECU when I head out to the boneyard.

I know what generation of cars to look at but, based on the photos I have of 460 ECUs, I have no idea how to identify the strategy. In the case of the 460, I know what the catch code is (FEZ3), and I know what the hardware number is (ML1-441), and I know what the part number is (F6TF-12A650-AMD), but I don't know what the strategy is! My brain feels like it is mush. Could somebody help me to understand what the heck it is that I need to know in order to identify the right ECM when at the bone yard?

[cajohnson]

My brain still feels like mush, but I did come across some information on the Moates site.

The following are the box codes (catch codes?) that run on the CDAN4 strategy. ALL of these are from '96 - '97 Crown Vic, Mustang, T-Bird, Cougar vehicles.

ABN2, ACK2, ACK3, ACK4
BBS3, BBS4
BLD2, BLD3, BLD4
CCA0, CCA1
CZH2, CZH3, CZH4
DDX3, DDX4
DXE2, DXE3, DXE4
FTE0, FTE1
GGL3, GGL4
GLS0
HDD0
HPP3, HPP4
HYY1
JJT0
JPA1
JZP3, JZP4
KFF3, KFF4
KZA1
LJC0, LJC1
LLX3, LLX4
LWC3
MBE1, MBE2, MBE3
MXL3
NNB3
NNC1
NPL2, NPL3
NYC0
PCL3, PCL4
PLX3
RCX3, RCX4, RCX5
SPP3, SPP4, SPP5
TFF0
VPX2, VPX3, VPX4
WMP2, WMP3, WMP4
XXL3, XXL4, XXL5
YCL2, YCL3, YCL4
ZXA3, ZXA4
ZZX1, ZZX2, ZZX3, ZZX4

[harold]

This file on EECAnalyzer.net has a whole bunch of strategies listed with the box codes on one sheet and the strategies listed with applications on the other.

[85GT]

Ebay can be your friend for some pics. You can see if there is a common hardware code. You have better luck by searching a vehicle model and then examining the pics. Look for matching tunes (catch code) in your list.

Got me a CBAZA eec that way.

[Stengun]

Howdy cajohnson,

Your best bet is to look for a '96-'97 V-8 T-bird.

The Crown Vic' doesn't have a factory tach and may or may not have the hardware to operate a tach.

My local Pick-N-Pull usually has a couple of '96-'97 V-8 T-birds.

I'm running a FTE0 ECU from a 97 V-8 T-bird in my Spyder.

HTH

Paul

[cajohnson]

I really appreciate all the help!

Just a quick question. Any thoughts on a CDAN4 GGL4? It's for a '96 - '97 Mustang GT w/ 4.6l and 5-speed. I do want a tach.

I've found one that includes a big piece of wiring harness.

[Stengun]

Howdy,

I really appreciate all the help!

Just a quick question. Any thoughts on a CDAN4 GGL4? It's for a '96 - '97 Mustang GT w/ 4.6l and 5-speed. I do want a tach.

I've found one that includes a big piece of wiring harness.

If the price is right grab it. My local Pick-N-Pull doesn't have a GT so I used one from a T-bird.

If you go this route make sure you use SailorBob's def file and Decipha's base tune.

With Decipha's base tune all you have to change is your size, injector specs, MAF transfer and a couple of other things and you engine will start and run and with a little tweeking will be driveable.

Paul

[cajohnson]

Ebay can be your friend for some pics. You can see if there is a common hardware code. You have better luck by searching a vehicle model and then examining the pics. Look for matching tunes (catch code) in your list.

Got me a CBAZA eec that way.

I have a love/hate relationship with ebay, but this exercise falls under the "love" part. What I did was take a list of box codes that used the CDAN4 strategy, and searched only on those codes on ebay. This kept me entertained for an entire evening. As it turns out, most of the folks that are selling ECMs on ebay DO list the box code as part of the heading and I found many ECMs with the CDAN4 strategy this way.

After Paul's comment about the tach signal, I started narrowing down the options. My truck has a manual trans, so I figured that a box code for a manual trans and a tach would be the way to go. I settled on either the T-Bird FTE0/1 or Mustang GGL3/4 code as the appropriate selection since I also wanted OBDII. I found a GGL4 box for sale on ebay, and it included a large chunk of engine wiring harness, so I bought it. (This is for a '96 - '97 Mustang GT with the 4.6L V8, 2V SOHC engine and 5-speed manual trans, intentionally not the Cobra 4V DOHC engine.)

With help from another gentleman, I discovered the Ford EVTM manuals and got a few of those to help with converting from the original ECM.

So long as the box code was included in the ebay listing, I saw every CDAN4 ECM that was for sale there. Some of these were pretty darn cheap, so I bought a few others for use as reference or test.

Chris

[cajohnson]

So, now I have these ECMs on the way and feel the need to be able to make sure that they are at least not dead. What's an inexpensive way to do this?

I'm thinking that it may be easy to query them through the ODBII port but have no idea what would be the best way to do this. I'm also anticipating eventually getting the Moates Quarterhorse for tuning/reading/writing, but that is another fairly large expense. Is there an easy/quick/inexpensive way to check these?

-- EDIT --
BTW, I did convince myself that the ECM from the truck in California is truly for the mass air system used on the California 460s in '96 and '97. I believe the GLUx code is for the trucks with a manual transmission, where as the FEZ3 code is for trucks with the E40D automatic transmission. I can't let this ECM get passed me, but I also don't think anybody has a .def file for it either, though the Quarterhorse should be able to read it and create a bin file so that I can play with the code in the future. This particular ECM wasn't cheap, so I really want to make sure it will power up properly before I put it away.

Thanks,

Chris J.

[decipha]

you should of got a tbird ecu, it has more goodies in it

The catch code doesnt matter when you tune it

[cajohnson]

you should of got a tbird ecu, it has more goodies in it

Ehh, such as?

I followed your advise about the CDAN4, but I don't recall your suggesting one from a particular vehicle.

And, I assume, the differences are in the hardware since the box code becomes irrelevant once you start tuning it. Is this correct?