[63bird]

I have a 79 f150 running a 1992 efi 460 c6 trans.

First I'm going to fix many issues that I know of.
Remove EGR and block it off.
Add second O2 sensor.
Install my innovate dual wide band O2 setup.
Also anything else that I did not do right before.

I ran a aeromotive stealth 340lph pump with 3/8" tubing for supply and return.

The truck runs ok and is very dependable but it has little power. So I'll get all to mechanical and electrical gremlins solved.

I need to know suggestions on what bin File I should use to start tuning? Or does someone have a similar stockish 460 file I can start with? I appreciate any suggestions or info.

Thanks

[cgrey8]

What tuning device are you using?

[63bird]

Sorry I forgot that. I'm using the moates quarter horse. I also got the jaybird and F3 chip for later. I'm use BE for software.

[cgrey8]

In that case, decipha's GUFB-based A9L2.bin is an option as a starting base.

[63bird]

I did a few searches but I can find the file. Is there an area where I can download them?

[63bird]

http://www.efidynotuning.com/a9l2.htm

Is this the right link?

[LeadHead]

yup

[dave67]

Hi, I have a similar setup and can offer some advice if you need. If you haven't done so, here is what I know:

The tune:
An A9L2 or A9L should work fine as long as you correct the important stuff in the tune. Off the top of my head: maf transfer function (I would use the lightning 90mm meter since its popular and the xfer function is easy to find), injector settings (high slope, low slope, breakpoint, and offset), injector firing order(15426378), injector output port (if only using 1 hego, this will need to be set to bank 1 for all cylinders), number of hegos, cranking pulse width (if it is hard to start), and engine displacement. Let me know if you need help with any of these settings. My 460 ran great after only these changes. Of course there will be plenty of tuning after this.

Electrical issues:
Did you have a pinout diagram for the 90s 460 truck computer and the A9P computer? If not, i have these somewhere. There are a few wires that needed switching and obviously the added MAF wiring and individual injector wiring. (Injector wiring needs to go to the correct cylinder). Also if using a BAP sensor make sure it is not hooked up to engine vaccum (like it was in the 90s trucks)

Horsepower:
These motors didn't have much and the stock A9l spark timing will prob make it worse. A 460 likes 36 - 38 degrees from 3000 rpm up at high load, so the spark table will need modification. (please don't destroy you engine on my part, this is just an educated suggestion). Base timing should be set with a timing light to 10 deg with the spout unplugged for the tables to be correct.

I'm sure you know most of this and I'm not an expert, but this is all stuff I've delt with, so take it as you will.

By the way, nice rides. 79 ford is an awesome truck (many years ago i had a 78 with a souped up 400m and granny 4 speed and i wish i still had it). I still currenty have a 67 stang. haha

[63bird]

Dave thank you very much I'll start going through those suggestions. I do have a lightning maf I plan to swap in.

I've been playing with the timing tables it's getting slightly better but it still has nasty loading, falls on its face and backfires under heavy acceleration.

When it had the orginal stock 405k mile 460 with a carb the truck would shread tires for a very long ways. I'm no where near that power right now.


Stupid question do I really need to have a VSS sensor? For years my other vehicle a 68 mustang efi conversation ran very strong without it.

My name is David as well

[dave67]

Is it backfiring through the intake? If so, I bet you have a lean fuel condition. The stock spark timing tables shouldn't be far enough off to cause backfiring.

VSS - maybe the experts will chime in but I think you should be alright without it. I know it is used in the idle controls to prevent stalling on decel. I'm sure you could tune around that if you have stalling or idle issues. The only other uses that I can think of is decel fuel shutoff, lean cruize, and speed limiter.

Does anybody else know if I'm correct on this?

[decipha]

yep your correct

popping in the intake is due to lean out

[63bird]

It sounds like it loads up gets very grumbly sounding almost a slight knock sound and toward the end huge back fires out the exhaust. Almost 12 guage shotgun sounding.

[decipha]

that would be an ignition fault

[63bird]

I have a extra TFI module I can swap in. The pickup in my distributor looks old and orginal. Should just buy all of it new? And should I only get oem Ford parts? I don't trust AutoZone ignition parts. I've had good luck with O'Reillys BWD parts. I hate to ask but it's better than buying it all twice.

The truck does idle well with the 70 mm throttle body.

I need to order some parts to build a intake for my lightning maf. I tried the lightning maf but I had gorilla tape holding it. It idled real good then the idle hunted and it would die. So I figured it must of leaked unmetered air. I'll be ordering the parts to make a nice air intake.

Unless someone has a reasonably priced orginal?

Thanks again guys!

[decipha]

you shouldn't have a 90mm maf on a 70mm throttle body, ideally you want to keep all the piping the same diameter

just go to the yard and get yourself a slot maf

[dave67]

I believe I read in one of your posts that you were at first running a 90s truck computer. Did you have these backfiring issues then? If not, I wouldn't go replacing ignition parts yet.

I don't think backfiring would be caused by an improperly sized MAF.

Are you confident you entered the correct information in the tune for your current maf and injectors? Have you read deciphas writeups on tuning? They are very informative.

Also, are you 100% sure you wired the A9P up correctly? It's definantly not plug and play.

Another thought, ford changed the TFI ignition module from
"push start" to "ccd (computer controlled dwell)"sometime in the 90s (I think it was 1994). These 2 ignition modules are not compatible. The A9P would need the early "push start" module. It will be grey not black. (Wrong module could definantly cause these issues now that I think of it)

[dave67]

Also, do you have the stock 90s throttle body? If so it is a twin 51mm bore with dual inlets. I found this a pain in the butt to plumb into the maf. I eventually switched to an 03 cobra throttle body (I belive it's twin 57s) with a a single inlet and it was much easier to plumb. Also it is a direct bolt on other than some throttle linkage modification.

For reference: My mild 460 will bring the lightning 90mm maf up to 4.3v. I have no idea whether this means a 70mm maf will be enough or not for your application. Maybe decipha will have some insight on this.

[decipha]

thats about 340rwhp with all 4" piping, your mild 460 is making significantly more power than what a stock 460 does

[63bird]

im pretty certain my wiring is correct i did it 6 years ago and went through each pin one at a time i think all that was added was 6 wires for injectors since 2 were useable, i added the mustang o2 sensor harness, added maf wires, and i believe the barometric pressure sensor wiring was in the correct eec spot.

the truck didnt run right even when it had the oem speed density eec. i think it did back fire then maybe not as bad. again this was 6 years ago. i knew at the time i had 5/16 fuel lines and that wasnt good enough so i just blamed that. ive recently added 3/8 supply and return and a 340lph aeromotive fuel pump. so even after swapping to the mass air setup i blamed it not running right on needing eec tuning.

I didn't mean 70 mm throttlebody i meant 70 mm MAF. my mistake sorry for confusion. it has the stock oem 460 1992 throttlebody.

i do have the OEM 1992 460 gray TFI. it is remote mounted on a heat sink. is this ok to run it this way? ive heard of people swapping the TFI to the 460 distrubitor (like a mustang). however i hear lots of issues with this type and i stuck to the remote mounted setup.

if it helps. my wiring harness started as a 1992 460, eec is A9P, MAF is a ford 70MM from a 96 thunderbird.

i did go through the list for tuning. im not 100% positive i have the injector info right in the tune. I believe high slope was the one where you enter the 24lbs the low slope is the one that is calculated. i remember something not looking right on breakpoint and the info i found for breakpoint. i can post a pic or chart. i changed the CID to 460. i changed the order for injectors to non HO order 15426378. my maf transfer table is on that was listed for a 70MM maf the highest was a little over 1500 vs the original 880 i think it was. i can give exact details when i get home.

I will look at what my max maf voltage is. i could do a youtube video of exactly what happens when i drive it if that would help? also i could show readings from my laptop i just need some insight as to what i should record so i dont waste your time.


currently it does idle well base timing is at 10 deg. im using the A9l2 bin file. i put a new fan clutch and changed to a 160 t stat. my warmed up ECT is right at 180 plus or minus 2 deg. previously i was at 210 to 215 deg. my gas is fresh 93 octane.

[63bird]

i have a innovate dual wide band O2 setup i still need to install.

[decipha]

holy smokes! your running 93 octane in the gem! I feel oh so bad for your wallet right now

[63bird]

better than when it was $4 a gallon a few years ago. where im at its about 2.50-2.60 a gallon i get better mileage in every vehicle i use it in so the cost almost levels out. but with trying to figure out my trucks issues i figure not to skimp on the gas. ill try regular once its actually running good.

[dave67]

I run 87 in my pig with 9 to 1 comp. haha 9 mpg is no fun!

Hey decipha, on the mass air topic, I have 4" piping between the maf and throttle body also a few inches in front of it, then stock air box and stock air intake to front grill.(it's pretty big and I always heard cold air is better than engine compartment air.)

Do you think your rwhp estimate is still accurate?

Also injector duty cycle is at 93% at 4600 rpm and 40 psi rail pressure if that's anymore indication of anything.

The seat of the pants just doesn't feel like 340 rwhp to me.

[dave67]

63bird:

It sounds like you prob have the wiring correct. Just make sure a vac line is not hooked to the bap.

The grey remote mount tfi should work great (I think it's actually better because it's away from direct engine heat). It doesn't matter to the eec whether it's remote or dizzy mount. Of course this doesn't mean that it's not bad.

I will post my injector settings when I get home. I believe they are the correct settings for the injectors at stock fuel pressure.

With a quarterhorse, I believe you can datalog everything and no reason not to. If you can post a datalog it will help me or someone else to help find the problem.

Just a guess, but it sure is starting to sound like you have some kind of mechanical or bad part issue since it was doing the same with the original eec.

[63bird]

my run log is just over mb and it wont let me post it here. i can email it if someone wants to see it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvpiRnl1HFs

heres a quick video of the poping and backfiring. i changed a few things in the tune and its still bad but the backfire dont sound like a12 ga shotgun no more.




attached is my current bin file of the A9L2 ive been working on.

[63bird]

2 short runs

[dave67]

Wow, that's a lot of backfiring. Haha

I'm sure you've checked, but you don't have a plug wire crossed or a dead cylinder or something do you?

Have you pulled your spark plugs and read them, or done a compression test?

[63bird]

The wires are correct. I may go ahead and replace plugs, wires, cap, rotor just to have it all new. It wasn't too bad looking.

It idles smooth and up to about 1/4 throttle it feels fairly strong. It's as I reach 1/2 to WOT it falls on its face loads up and pops.

[LeadHead]

Can you hook up a fuel pressure gauge and see what that's doing while your driving? It sounds seriously lean, or that you have a serious ignition issue.

[dave67]

Sounds like a plan.

With the way it's running, I think it would be difficult to learn any useful info from the datalogs. I've heard that raw fuel from misfires can cause strange o2 sensor readings.

From my experiences, when an engine will idlle well, but not run under load, it is either a lean issue (which we've already covered since it's not popping through the intake), or a spark issue.

It's hard to say what's wrong, because it could be anything, but I would suspect a weak ignition coil, or maybe a bad tfi. (But I hate to say, it could be anything from a bad ground, to a bad vaccum leak)

Also, with modern oils, I have heard of these 460s wiping a cam lobe.

Sorry, I'm sure it's something simple, I'm just throwing all the possibilities out there.