Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

This is the place for questions about things electrical and mechnanical...or any other automotive-related hardware issue.

Moderators: cgrey8, EDS50, Jon 94GT, 2Shaker

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:14 am

From what I've found, there's a device on the Moates.net website (model BT_D2) that will Bluetooth expose a number of Moates devices including the QH.

Before I invest in one, is there any user feedback yay or nay about how well these actually work with BE or if they work with BE at all? If not, I'll likely buy it anyway just to experiment with it. But I've just never heard anybody from the site talking about these or indicating they are worth the money, if they work with BE/TunerPro, or how easily they are to get paired to a Bluetooth-capable laptop.

Any knowledge or user-experience out there?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth and new superlogger

Post by jsa » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:26 pm

I got one when i got the opto isolator, but have not put it through its paces.

I was suprised yesterday to find out the superlogger has been quietly released to the great unwashed.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:22 pm

I gave the Bluetooth device a hit today.

I can use a Bluetooth Terminal app on my android device and get responses from the QH.

The Tunerview app for android does not support GHAJ0, so that remains unknown.

The latest TunerproRT appears to work on the surface at least. I don't have GHAJ0 files for TP at this point.

Binary Editor 5.58 appears blind to Bluetooth ports.
Last edited by jsa on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:42 pm

I got my QHs back from Moates today. They do, indeed, have the user-serviceable battery now. I also got their (yet unreleased) Bluetooth adapters for the QH. It comes with a Bluetooth Master and Slave device. The slave connects to the QH via its aux serial port on the side of it. The Master just plugs up to my computer's USB. So it's not quite as "wireless" as I'd hoped, but it does let you stay connected to the QH without being completely tethered to a USB in the car.

The first thing I noticed is the default driver it tries to use is the standard FTDI USB Serial Converter driver. But just like with a real QH, you force Windows to use the Moates QH driver. I have multiple drivers, however I've found the v2.6.0.0 works best for me. It's one of the older drivers. And while I would've thought the newer QH Window USB drivers would work "better", they don't for me.

Anyway it all seems to work just fine. Great service from Moates. And I look forward to getting this setup in my truck instead of just testing it in my living room. But before I install it, I want to get updated pics of the latest hardware version of the QH so people can see what the latest version looks like. I also want to get some pics of the Bluetooth USB devices as well.

Also I'd like to add I was able to discover & pair, from my Kindle Fire, with the Bluetooth slave device connected to the QH. But since I don't have any apps to interact with a serial device installed, all I could do is confirm that I could pair. The pairing password was 1234. Although I did have to UNPAIR and FORGET the USB device on my tablet in order to get the slave to pair with the USB master connected to my PC.

So, initially I am setup to do Bluetooth wireless coms using BE and the QH. The catch is I have to use a USB-to-Bluetooth device that I can apply the Quarterhorse driver to in order for BE to find the QH. However now that I have this equipment, I'll see if I can get a generic USB-Bluetooth device and start working with Clint to get BE to communicate with the QH via plain-ole Bluetooth without having to have a USB serial device that takes the QH driver. Once that can be gotten to work, then anybody with Bluetooth built into their computers should be able to just buy the Slave Bluetooth dongle that you connect to the QH and get a much better wireless QH experience. Unfortunately my laptop doesn't have BT built in. But that's OK. I can still experiment. And the aftermarket USB-BT devices are super-tiny...far smaller than the Master setup from Moates.

So, wireless is on the way! I think once I get this working, I'll invest in a Moates Superlogger so I can ditch my LC-1's USB-connection and stream my WB signal from the Superlogger, over BT, to my PC. At that point, I'll have a 100% wireless tuning solution.

Stay tuned for pictures and more details on the progress.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
EDS50
Administrator
Posts: 3651
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:17 am
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by EDS50 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:12 pm

I use the BT and use tunerview to display the dashboard on my galaxy note or lg gpad. I tried using the bt feature with my laptop but experienced a lot of driver issues, latency and connection issues and such. I make sure to shut the BT off on my laptop since my experience is less than stellar, but tunerview is the shit with the gufx strats. Very happy with its performance. I use my evp port for logging my afr but I also have the superlogger so its no issue for me. Last time I talked to Craig he didn't sound very interested in the SL and refused to upgrade mine when I sent him my QH units to be upgraded to the removable battery version.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:25 pm

My trials were with the Moates QH module for the QH end only. The PC/phone end was with built in Bluetooth or generic dongle.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:58 am

Since my laptop doesn't have BT built-in, this is what I was looking at getting (ebay special):
USB-BT_adapter.jpg
USB-BT_adapter.jpg (60.08 KiB) Viewed 8440 times
Bluetooth 4.0 USB 2.0 CSR4.0 Dongle Adapter

As small as this is, it is almost as good as being built-in particularly if it will allow me to ditch the USB wires in my truck.

I just emailed Clint to see what his interest-level is in modifying BE to connect to the QH through some peripheral other than the USB QH driver.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:45 pm

Some of the dongles are low energy, read very short distance, may not overcome environment noise.

When I need range I use a Sena Parani dongle.

It may be wise to change the default pairing password to prevent others accessing your QH. Could be lots of fun at the track :surprised:

Google Arduino HC-05 AT commands.

Yes, I've queried Clint about bluetooth previously also.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:19 pm

Here's the pictures I got...

QH with a user-serviceable battery:
QH_User_Serviceable_Battery.jpg
QH_User_Serviceable_Battery.jpg (139.15 KiB) Viewed 8421 times
When the QH is delivered, the battery is in a tiny ziplock bag. You install the battery when you are ready to install the QH to preserve the battery from being drained while "on the shelf."

Here's the QH and the BT Slave Module connected:
QH_BT_Slave.jpg
QH_BT_Slave.jpg (147.97 KiB) Viewed 8421 times
When I went to mount the QH onto the EEC, I ran into an old GUFx EEC issue. There's an annoying capacitor right in the way preventing me from being able to connect the QH with the addition of that serial adapter. So I had to bend the serial adapter up at an angle to make it fit. Notice:
QH_on_EEC.jpg
QH_on_EEC.jpg (140 KiB) Viewed 8421 times
With the EEC buttoned back up, I draped the BT Slave on the side of the EEC that will locate the Slave device closest to the passenger side seat. So if I can find a way to use that USB-BT adapter, it'll literally be 2 feet from the slave and with only the kick panel plastic separating the slave from being completely in line-of-sight. Hopefully that's plenty close that it could work through any environmental noise that might be present. Although I do agree that I need to figure out how to change the BT Slave's password. I have no clue how to do that right now.


Here's the Master and the USB-TTL device:
USB-TTL_BT_Master.jpg
USB-TTL_BT_Master.jpg (79.96 KiB) Viewed 8421 times
I have my setup so I can either connect via USB or via the wireless option. But since I have a wire from the LC1, I might as well just continue using the USB wire. However Clint emailed me back and said he's going to look into what it'll take to get BE to use a generic BT serial connection. If he thinks its doable, then I'll go ahead and order that little BT device.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:01 pm

Password change is done using AT commands from a terminal window. Hyperterminal or similar. Requires a RS232 or USB to TTL dongle.
Connect moates BT slave to TTL side of dongle.
Connect other side of dongle to PC or USB OTG phone.
Use terminal window to apply HC05 AT commands.

I'm waiting for a FTDI USB TTL dongle to arrive here.

Bluetooth can support 7 slaves to 1 master. The chosen master needs to support that mode though. So the Innovate serial could be combined on bluetooth as well.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:29 pm

I haven't confirmed this or done any extensive testing, but as described above, it seems that once one of the slaves has been paired with CERTAIN masters (e.g. my Kindle Fire), it will not pair with other masters (e.g. the Moates Master). I'm wondering if this is because some masters change the PW of the slave as part of the pairing to prevent other masters from auto-connecting to them? Then when unpaired, the master resets the PW back to what it was.

Or perhaps there is some other standard Bluetooth rule/configuration that explains this behavior. If anybody has any thoughts or speculations that can be investigated, I'd be interested to entertain the ideas. I'm fairly new to BT, so any info about how these things operate at a low level might come in useful. In fact, it might be a useful tool to augment BinaryEditor with and something I can talk with Clint about adding.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:53 pm

I had no such issues pairing a slave with 3 different BT masters,
* Galaxy S6 internal
* Lenovo P50 internal Intel
* Sena Parani

Your kindle may still be paired while you are trying to pair from another master.

The slave should really only have one master at a time.

Yes BE is behind TP for BT support.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:30 pm

I did some researching to see if I could get more info WITHOUT asking Craig questions. But when I started reading, I found I was making lots of assumptions. So I emailed Craig with a number of questions and my assumptions. For once, my assumptions were on the money.

So first off, these Moates Bluetooth devices are based on the HC-05 Bluetooth radio. They are just as configurable as any other HC-05. However you can't just start configuring them over the TTL. The radio has to be put into configure mode. Reading the websites and the documentation, this is done by connecting the radio's pin 34 to Vcc while it is being powered ON. However Moates has made it easier, mainly since they have to do the same thing. The baseboard they solder the HC-05 radio onto is of their own design. It has jumper pads already built into it that connects pin 34 to Vcc. So all you have to do is pierce the shrink wrap and short the jumper. The jumper pads to be connected have AT silkscreened between them.

He also confirmed that they use the HULOG (USB-TTL converter) to configure these things. So there's no reason others can't do the same.

And finally, he confirmed that the scenario where multiple BT-Masters and BT-Slaves in transmission range of each other would create an ambiguous pairing condition since the Masters are programmed to auto-pair with any Slave it finds that matches its Bluetooth Profile and Password. So to prevent that, the password would need to be changed. My guess is a super-simple Password-updating program could be written for this purpose. Once in configure mode, the AT command is:
AT+PSWD=<new 4-digit password>

Clint should be getting his BT setup from Moates soon as well. Once he's got what I got, my hope is we can make some progress getting these things better supported in BE.

One thing I still don't know that needs investigating is if BinaryEditor can instruct the local BT device (in the laptop) to pair to a slave with a specific password. The only pairing I've done from a sophisticated device (i.e. my tablet) has been through that device's OS GUI designed to display the names of slave devices in the area and prompt for a password once one is chosen. I don't know how much applications can inject themselves into that procedure. Pairing a laptop's native BT device to a Moates BT-slave might have to be something that's just done at the OS level and thus something BE can't get in the middle of. If others have more info about this, please post what you know.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:27 am

Well, my USB-BT adapter came in yesterday. I was able to pair with the Moates BT-Slave and with a test-version of BE, I was able to datalog the QH over Bluetooth. I tested it last night and again on the drive this morning. The hardest part was dealing with the Windows UI to get the pairing to work. There are still some minor bugs in BE related to the new feature that I need to work with Clint to get sorted out before it is release-worthy. But it's very close.

So later today, I'll be buying a Superlogger so I can ditch my USB-232 adapter and datalog 100% wireless.

Later this week, I'll be updating the post talking about how to install the Moates QH on a GUFx-era EEC with the Bluetooth option including screencaps of how to pair a generic BT driver to the Moates BT-slave. It wasn't exactly intuitive and obvious. I figured it out, but my guess is the average person that doesn't know much about Bluetooth or dealing with BT devices in a Windows interface isn't likely to just know how to make this work.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:03 pm

I've written up a tutorial in the FAQ section detailing out the steps involved with getting a Moates QH setup for Bluetooth communication with BE.
FAQ>Setting up a Moates QH for Bluetooth connectivity with BE

Read it over and tell me where I went off the rails or where I just misspelled something.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:26 pm

Great writeup Chris.

Some comment for you on BT ports.

Yes, two com port numbers are the norm for BT serial links. Occasionally the higher com port number is the one to use, but always go for the low one first. The numbers may not be sequential pairs either.

To do the following procedure you will need Admin user rights on your computer. Depending on your Windows version and settings, you may get UAC screens which you will have to accept.

Windows can be set to show the bluetooth icon in the notification area, making it easy to click and pair or check status. The setting for this is at;
Control Panel>Bluetooth Devices>Options>Show Bluetooth icon in the notification area

Com port numbers can be reassigned. After plugging your BT device into all your USB ports, you can set the same Com port number pairs to all instances of your BT device. Get into Windows Device Manager;

Right Click My Computer>Manage>Device Manager>View>enable Show Hidden Devices

Navigate the tree and expand Ports;
Right Click a Port>Properties>Port Settings>Advanced>Select the required Com Port Number>OK>Click Yes if you get a FUD dialog.

When you choose a Com port number pair, it may show as (in use) because it is assigned to your first or subsequent BT-USB combo or possibly another serial device. So the sensible thing to do is choose a port number pair associated with your first BT-USB combo, even though it is (in use). Changing each BT-USB combo to the same port number pair, in turn will get you all your BT-USB combo's on the same port number.

Issues, alluded to by the FUD screen when assigning multiple instances to the same com port, occur when having more than one physical device plugged in at once using the same com port number. As only one BT device _will_ be used there is no issue for our purposes.

It is possible to assign your BT-USB com port numbers to com port numbers used by other physical hardware, but then you could not use your other hardware at the same time.

Obviously make sure you set the right port of the BT-USB pair instance to the right common port number.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:32 pm

Thanks for reading it over and giving your thoughts and comments.

I can add some of this, but a lot of your comments are Windows management details. I'm not sure how much of that is appropriate to be added. For example, adding the BT icon and using the icon as an alternative method to do things is interesting, probably informative to some, but the tutorial starts veering away from the subject to discuss details that won't likely be done often enough to warrant mention of an alternative. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a place for this information. But I speculate it is probably more appropriate for people to learn about these advance "pro-tips" right here in the forum discussions rather than in a tutorial. This way, it keeps the tutorial cleaner while also informing those interested parties. I can even link to this thread from the tutorial for additional reading so these comments AND future comments don't get lost in the history.

The one detail that is most compelling is getting all USB positions the USB-BT dongle might find itself in to all use the same COM port numbers just so it doesn't change BE. I've done that trick with other USB devices, like my USB-232 adapter. I'm just not sure whether it will be a good augmentation to the tutorial or if it would bog it down and possibly loose/confuse people. Add to this, I don't know if that will work with this device, but I plan to find out. As I said in the tutorial, I couldn't pair to previously paired devices when the dongle was moved to other USB ports. It's possible there's some behind-the-scenes marriage with the paired device and the COM port number. If that's true, then this trick will likely work.

You might also want to spell out FUD, just so others not familiar aren't lost or annoyed.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:02 pm

Fear Uncertainty Doubt

You expressed uncertainty and dissatisfaction about BT port count in your tutorial, so my intent was to offer my experience of what is normal and one solution.

I think link and/or minor edit to your tutorial, I'll leave you to decide.

Yes, I have Com1 and Com2 stacked pretty heavily. The joys of working with ancient tech.

Bluetooth port stacking of higher port numbers works for me with other applications, but have not tried it with BE. I've not had to stack Com1 through 4 with Bluetooth, and is likely wise to avoid as new tech can deal with high port numbers.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:48 pm

Ahh, I can go back and update the doc to indicate that 2 COMs is typical since it is a known phenomenon.

Is there any particular reason why it presents with 2 COM ports? I thought it could only be paired to one device at a time...or is that a wrong assumption?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:19 am

I updated the tutorial with some of these suggestions as well as linking here for info on how to consolidate the COM port usage regardless of which USB port the USB-BT dongle is connected to. I also put up a note indicating that the info is under construction.

Even the BE screencaps may not be how it will really work when Clint releases BE with this capability. I'm going to talk to Clint about an auto-discovery method which should work most of the time, but can be bypassed for people that want to manually set the COM port, regardless of whether the user is using Bluetooth or not. I'm hoping this auto-discovery technique can be used by all of the COM-based hardware that BE supports (i.e. Innovate, DataQ, etc).

I also thought of an additional "protip" that might or might not make shorting the AT pins easier. Most VOMs today, even the Harbor Freight freebies, have the ability to be setup for current measurement. To do that, you usually have to move the positive lead to a dedicated input on the meter, often indicated as 10ADC max. To perform this measurement, you wire the meter in series with the load. Inside the meter, there's a rather thick "calibrated" wire that the current flows through. The meter measures the tiny voltage differential across that wire and correlates that to a current value knowing the calibrated resistance of the wire. But for the purposes of shorting out the jumper connection on the BT-Slave, you can use sharp-tipped leads to both pierce the shrink wrap as well as perform the shorting via the VOM meter in current mode.

I would still like some more info on why Bluetooth presents 2 COM ports. Google-searching that, I found others attempting to pair 2 devices simultaneously and instead of the adapter using the 2nd COM port, it created another 2 for the other device. But multiple people reported that despite the additional COM ports being presented, only 1 of the 2 BT slaves was actually accessible. Evidently there's either bugs in the Bluetooth stack OR there was some other problem that was never figured out by the thread contributors. Some people seemed to believe that one port was a Tx port and the other was an Rx port. That seems moronic being Windows COM ports have been capable of bi-directional dataflow since their inception AFAIK. I don't get why that would even be a thing, but it was discussed as though that's how it was. It certainly doesn't match my experience with using the QH via Bluetooth. But I thought I'd mention it just to get other people's take and see if maybe there is more to the story that others here might know about and can educate me on.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:38 pm

As mentioned above bluetooth supports 1 master to 7 slaves.

Native RS232 has DTE and DCE. Data Terminal Equipment initiates comms and Data Communications Equipment responds.

With Bluetooth SPP either end can initiate comms, so one port number for DTE and another port number for DCE. If you dig around enough in your bluetooth settings or device manager, you will see the ports described as incoming and outgoing.

Obviously master and slave is a concept that does not totally apply to bluetooth. Setting a HC05 as slave implies that it can only work as DCE.

As for the people struggling with 2 devices, I suspect it might be related to there chosen hardware and stack. Maybe they should be using a single bluetooth device on the computer that supports up to 7 remote devices, rather than multiple bluetooth dongles.

What is the auto discovery technique you have in mind ? PM me if you like.


Yeah the multimeter jumper wire trick, always good to have a fair idea of the prospective (fault) current. All good for this use case though.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:27 am

Received my FTDI TTL-232R-5V-WE, some Molex connectors and pins.

Hooked it up and bridged the AT pins with a couple EZ Hook grabbers.

Tried a few different Terminals programs.

This one really is simple to use, really simple to change password. See 3rd image.
http://www.compuphase.com/software_termite.htm

at+pswd? Request current password
AT+pswd:9876 Changes password, in this case to 9876
Attachments
Moates_HC05_Plugged_In.jpg
Added Molex connector to cable and plugged in to Moates Bluetooth dongle with EZ Hook grabbers on AT terminals.
Moates_HC05_Plugged_In.jpg (243.96 KiB) Viewed 8007 times
FTDI_USB_TTL_cable.jpg
FTDI USB to TTL cable
FTDI_USB_TTL_cable.jpg (308.64 KiB) Viewed 8007 times
Termite.png
Shows Termite settings for the Port and Password change in the bottom window.
Termite.png (86.45 KiB) Viewed 8007 times
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:21 am

I tried to throw together a quick C# program, but my 30 day license for VS has long since expired. I thought community edition didn't require licensing. But I guess there's something I have to do to get a "free" license. Instead of figuring that out, I thought I'd try my hand at Java. I'm transitioning to using Java at work so this seemed like a good chance to do something super-simple. Turns out Java and serial ports...not simple. I had to jump through all kinds of gyrations to get it to work...far more than I'd want others to have to go through just to get the program to launch. So at some point, I'll need to go back and do this in C#, but I'm to the point in the program where I "think" I can start sending it AT commands. But this week's full of travel and other stuff, so I doubt I'll make much headway on it this week. But it's good to know just a simple terminal program is that easy. It's probably sufficient just to let people do that given what they are doing in the terminal program isn't that complicated.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:22 pm

Yeah, it is my opinion, Terminal AT commands are so simple that a specific program is a waste of effort.

Some of the terminal apps have a lot of capabilities and options, which would only confuse 1st timers but Termite is minimalist and straight forward for a password change.

I queried all the HC05 AT commands and it is possible to change master/slave, device name, baud/parity and pairings just to name a few.

Have fun with your app.

Started reading some .net stuff. Evidently anything using .net serial libraries is doomed to problems.
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:09 pm

I tend to agree. I used Hypterterminal to do mine. I copied Hypterterminal over to my computer from my WinXP machine since newer Windows don't come with it anymore. I'm fairly sure that one you used is a bit simpler.

Anyway, I've been working with Clint to get BT support and the latest has a very early implementation. However it doesn't seem to work for my laptop. We are still working through why. But then my extra QH I use for testing inside decided to die. My guess is some of the crap it was receiving over the BT connection upset the processor that's on it. The FTDI chip still works and each time I plug it into the USB, Windows recognizes it. But when you capture the COM port, nothing ever responds. So I'm assuming the little Atmel processor that's on it just died or somehow lost its programming. So I've got to send it back to Moates to have them fix it. My bet is they'll find it just needs to be reprogrammed.

Anyway in further investigation, I found that there are a few different alternative BT stacks out there. It seems one of the best ones was one made by Toshiba. However it requires licensing and for whatever reason, they no longer support it or license it. You can still download it from their website and there are claims that it will work as-is on Toshiba laptops, but I don't know that for sure. There are other pay-for stacks, but I'm not paying for one so I haven't gotten any kind of time with them.

I'm still waiting for my Superlogger to come on. Craig said they haven't been very popular and all the ones they've made up until now have been beta units. So since I'm one of the early purchasers of it, he wanted to give me a true production model, not one they'd been using for beta testing. It should be in within the next week or so. I might call them and have them just ship this RMA'd QH and the SL together instead of wasting the shipping on both.

On a sidenote, I also tested TunerPro over the BT connection and it works too. However because TunerPro ALWAYS uses the 4-bank mode, even with tunes that only have 1 bank, it seems to have to write 256k to the QH instead of just 56k which makes the writes a bit longer over USB, than BE.

The one thing I'm annoyed at is the general instability of the BT drivers for Windows. They work, but not flawlessly. They tend to get their shoelaces tied together easily. When the slaves come and go or when the COM ports are opened/closed a lot, they have a tendency to lock up and cause you to have to reboot the machine to get them working again. I've NEVER had this kind of trouble doing BT on any mobile device. Then again, maybe the issue is with bridging the gap between BT and COM ports. Hopefully this is just a Win7 issue and people using Win10 will have a much better BT-COM port experience. If they do, I might be motivated to upgrade to Win10. Are they still doing that for free or did my "window" (pun intended) to upgrade to Win10 end?
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

jsa
Tuning Addict
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:28 pm
Location: 'straya

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by jsa » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:11 pm

cgrey8 wrote:I tend to agree. I used Hypterterminal to do mine. I copied Hypterterminal over to my computer from my WinXP machine since newer Windows don't come with it anymore. I'm fairly sure that one you used is a bit simpler.
Just got myself a new laptop with Win10 and upgraded it to Win7. I decided to look at alternatives to hyperterminal rather than copy over from XP. I thought Termite was more intuitive to use.
Anyway in further investigation, I found that there are a few different alternative BT stacks out there. It seems one of the best ones was one made by Toshiba.


My just retired laptop is a Toshiba Satellite Pro, the toshiba stack is not that great as I found the default XP Microsoft stack worked a lot better. I've tried widcom and blue soleil, but gone back to MS on that machine.
However it requires licensing and for whatever reason, they no longer support it or license it. You can still download it from their website and there are claims that it will work as-is on Toshiba laptops, but I don't know that for sure.
The very last toshiba version never worked for me, earlier versions did but seemed to have signal sensitivity/power issues. As above the default MS one worked better for me.
There are other pay-for stacks, but I'm not paying for one so I haven't gotten any kind of time with them.
My new laptop is intel BT, not enough time with it yet to make any claims about its BT.
I'm still waiting for my Superlogger to come on. Craig said they haven't been very popular and all the ones they've made up until now have been beta units. So since I'm one of the early purchasers of it, he wanted to give me a true production model, not one they'd been using for beta testing. It should be in within the next week or so.
Yeah my order has been in since November. They have to be available for delivery before they can become popular. I think once the capabilities are more widely undestood and applied popularity will pick up.

The one thing I'm annoyed at is the general instability of the BT drivers for Windows.
I've had no issues with default MS stack on XP. Sessions many hours in length, day in day out. I hope it continues with 7.
When the slaves come and go or when the COM ports are opened/closed a lot, they have a tendency to lock up and cause you to have to reboot the machine to get them working again.
What software package?
What BT master hardware?

A recent windows update broke intel BT.

There are some signal strength AT commands on the HC-05, might be worth a look.

I'm trying to nail down similar misbehaviour with BE and Innovate hardware at the moment. Both native RS232 and USB to RS232 connection types.
I've NEVER had this kind of trouble doing BT on any mobile device. Then again, maybe the issue is with bridging the gap between BT and COM ports.
Maybe, or maybe application and com port.
Hopefully this is just a Win7 issue and people using Win10 will have a much better BT-COM port experience. If they do, I might be motivated to upgrade to Win10. Are they still doing that for free or did my "window" (pun intended) to upgrade to Win10 end?
My new laptop was Win10! Hopefully I don't need to upgade it again from 7 to XP ;)
Cheers

John

95 Escort RS Cosworth - GHAJ0 / ANTI on a COSY box code
Moates QH & BE
ForDiag

LeadHead
Tuning Addict
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by LeadHead » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:48 am

I've never had that kind of trouble using BT on my Windows 7 laptop. I use the BT OBD2 scan tools a lot and never had an issue that required a reboot.

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:57 am

I've been using Clint's latest version of BE (which is released to all) and it's been working pretty well as long as I keep the USB-BT adapter in the same USB port. It auto-connects to my BTSlave in my truck and datalogs without issue.

I was having a problem where BT wasn't successfully writing tunes to the QH that Clint was not able to reproduce. More times than not, the QH would respond with a "3F" (NACK) instead of a "4F" (ACK) indicating whatever BE was sending got garbled OR timed out. TunerPro was doing the same thing when writing to the QH so it was something specific to my setup, not something awry in BE. I had an unrelated problem that forced me to restore my PC from an Acronis backup and after doing that, the download issue seemed to go away. Although I have not exercised it significantly. The actual problem was that my spare QH that I was using inside the house died. I wrongfully assumed it was a problem with the PC, but it was the QH. It's sent back to Moates for repair/replacement. My guess is it had something to do with being connected to a 120v-to-USB power supply was what fried it. When it returns, I'll do more testing. But regardless, I've asked Clint if he could implement a "retry" in tune-writes when a "3F" is received so the write doesn't just fail when it's very likely a retry would've succeeded. I have not gotten a version of BE that implements this and worse, I'm not sure, now that my laptop has been restored from a backup that I will be able to reproduce the problem...and I'm not exactly excited about trying to get it back into that state.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

User avatar
EDS50
Administrator
Posts: 3651
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:17 am
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by EDS50 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:14 pm

I like the bluetooth for the simple fact it doesnt succumb to disconnects like the usb does due to emi. It is a little slower to display but the logs are more important to me. The SL takes time to set up but I will say I like the older version much better. I just dont think it plays nice with BE but does work fantastic with TunerPro R/T.
1992 LX - 25.1c Chassis, Vortech Blown Dart 332, Lentech Trans, TRZ Backhalf, A9L, Moates QH/SL v1.9, BE, EA, TunerView

User avatar
cgrey8
Administrator
Posts: 10536
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:54 am
Location: Acworth, Ga (Metro Atlanta)
Contact:

Re: Bluetooth adapter for the Moates Quarterhorse

Post by cgrey8 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:23 pm

I wish I could give the SL raves. But I just can't. Both Craig and Clint have always been very supportive and answered all my questions. But the SL just doesn't work the way I need it to with BE. So I cannot recommend it for people using BE AND wanting to see SL values in realtime on the dashboard.
...Always Somethin'

89 Ranger Supercab, 331 w/GT40p heads, ported Explorer lower, Crane Powermax 2020 cam, 1.6RRs, FMS Explorer (GT40p) headers, Slot Style MAF, aftermarket T5 'Z-Spec', 8.8" rear w/3.27s, Powertrax Locker, Innovate LC-1, GUFB, Moates QuarterHorse tuned using BE&EA

Member V8-Ranger.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests