[cgrey8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVHcdgrqbHE
As a firmware developer that has been developing more and more in Linux (and less in RTOS environments), I found the title of this video interesting particularly since it was a presentation at a Linux convention (hence why it's 50 minutes). So I watched it just to see what it was.

The guy made a lot of really good points that I couldn't disagree with on the surface, although I have to believe there's a reason for a lot of the duplication of effort he mentions (i.e. the different package managers). Although some of the things he mentioned, when you break it down, are just whining that Linux got popular. It's like when my wife gets upset when she finds some really obscure band that she loves, then they start getting popular, and soon everybody knows who they are. And being an early fan, she feels like the rest are "fake" fans, or something. I don't quite get that, but I recognize this as a thing people can feel. Well, this guy reminds me of that. He's been with Linux for quite a few years, and he's just upset that it's gotten popular, gotten adoption by big players that can monetize it, and are actively cutting off some of the early roots in the process.

I also realize that I am among the group of people this guy doesn't like. My day job as a firmware developer is to develop products that use the Linux kernel as their OS. Linux was specifically chosen because of it's wide acceptance, open Internet support, and most important, it's price tag. Linux, on the products I help develop, is locked down from the factory, so production devices cannot be logged into by the casual user. Nothing is exposed that remotely indicates that it's Linux, although for legal reasons, the use of Linux and the other open sourced applications used are made available upon request. And from the end-user's perspective, they aren't using the products as a Linux device. The devices have far more in common with IoT devices than Linux servers. Moving forward, the next generation firmware is going to be Java code running on top of Linux (similar to Android and Chrome OS) further removing the relevance of Linux from the product. But from this guy's standpoint, I, along with every other developer at a company that does this with Linux, are part of Linux's problem. And to further annoy him, I use Ubuntu as my desktop development OS as do most of the other developers that I work with. And just to add insult to injury, all of the code I write and run on Linux is proprietary and protected as Intellectual Property...thus not open source and doesn't have to be since it doesn't link against the kernel or any other GPL-licensed application.

So are there other Linux users/developers/gurus out there that have an opinion? As a fellow Linux developer (that is, a developer that writes applications for Linux, not a developer of the Linux kernel), I'm curious of other Linux user's take.

[tvrfan]

I haven't watched the video yet, but some immediate comments....

As you know I have used UNIX and proprietary OSes in the past, and only a little under the Windoze series.
I did hardly any commercial development on Windoze,as I was normally in the 'server' end of things, but I did play quite a bit with Borland C and C++ for my own stuff.

I declare this first as it probably makes me biased.

My desktop is also Ubuntu (but Xubuntu as I prefer the simpler desktop).
I like that it's FREE, and that it doesn't keep phoning home with 'undefined' data.

Because of the OS setup of UNIX and Linux, it's ALWAYS going to be inherently more secure than windows.
It doesn't have a registry which is shared by everybody for a start.
It rigidly enforces file and user permissions EVERYWHERE. (Yes there are ways to get admin permission, but it's deliberately VERY HARD from outside the OS, making web based attacks a lot harder)

and while its desktop penetration is very poor (like about 3%), its server penetration is over 60%, so a LOT of providers regard it as the best choice.
That can't be just a coincidence. SO it does NOT SUCK .....

[tvrfan]

After watching the video............

Fascinating, and probably all true.

I had already read about the fear that corporates (M$ especially) were covertly planning their standard methods for takeover, and it already did look scary.
This video explains a bit more (but not a shock to me).

Also for me, I tried out GNOME and KDE (for non-techies, these are alternate desktops - different ways of displaying your stuff.) and found them way over the top for me, so I went with XFCE, which I quite like (again for non-techies this is like the difference between Windows 95 and Windows 10. They both work, but lots of the snazzy and expensive and slow effects don't exist in Win95).

So actually, I was already well into the same space as the guy in the video.

I've never built a Linux kernel, perhaps I'll try it one day (and leave most of the extra crap out...)

I even ran WinXP in Classic mode at work (a while ago), because I didn't need the extra snazzy bits. The tech support guys thought it was funny, until I reminded them about how much FASTER it was.....


Long term though, this is the way business works, Stuff gets corporatized and turned into a revenue source. At least the GPL defines that most of the source code is freely available, but how long that lasts will be the test.... I suspect it will indeed be the death of a thousand cuts, as slowly but surely more proprietary 'closed' products/apps will invade the 'free' space.

[motorhead1991]

Partially unrelated, but building a kernel is actually quite reasonable. It does take some hardware on occasion, but modifying the kernel allows you to create your own support for troublesome hardware and untested filesystems.

IME, Windows is stuck until a publisher gets on top of things...

[caish]

I've been using Linux since 95, pre win95 roll out.
Using Linux mint now, started out with Redhat back then...
Not a coder, just an advanced user of computers.
I had a few Unix systems in the past, Solaris, HP-Unix and NetBSD and gladly take Linux,...

[ChsReb]

Linux is just another tool in the computer tool box. Some things it does well. Some things poorly or not at all.

I’m definitely not a coder. My brother is, and worked at the weather service for many years in both hardware and software using and programming Fedora/ Red Hat. I still call him for my yearly or so compile of some program I need that isn’t compiled for Ubuntu 20.04.

He got me using Linux about 20 years ago. He is a 100% Linux power user and doesn’t even own a Windows machine.

As for me I mainly use a dual boot Windows 10 and Ubuntu Studio 20.04 machine. I still have an operational Windows XP machine dual booting Ubuntu.

I still use a Windows Vista Laptop to program the Mustang at least until the Intel NUCs become available. When one does, it will be a dual boot as well. (Unless Clint develops a Linux based Binary Editor.)

Now, I run everything I can in Linux. All email, documents, and Internet usage is done in Linux. Primary reason: Security.

Places where Linux does suck:
1.) New Hardware. You better do your research before you buy something new to run in Linux. I usually takes at least a year for Linux to catch up. Everything is written new for Windows.
2.) Specialized hardware requiring software. Example: To my knowledge Binary Editor won’t run on any Linux platform.
3.) The latest and Greatest of anything. Linux does have video editors but nothing that can touch Power Director.
4.) No support for the iPhone. There are workarounds using an IUSB or Ydisk.

Places where Linux blows Windows away:
1.) Security. No data collecting and waiting on a hacker to crack Microsoft’s spying scheme.
2.) Support for old Hardware. I’ve got several printers and scanners that work great in Linux, but are totally useless in Windows 10.
3.) As a Two edged sword, Linux still maintains Command line functionality far exceeding the GUI.
Used correctly you can do things not supported in Windows. Used incorrectly the “dd” command does mean “ disk destroyer”.

[cgrey8]

It's funny that you bring this up because Linux is getting better, but it still is far from being great. I follow the various LMG channels on youtube, and Linus (Sebastian, not Torvalds) is having a Linux challenge with some of his employees where they try to do simple things with Linux like gaming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4L8Oci_2Bs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M

As mentioned here, Linux has reigned supreme for decades when it comes to being a server OS where uptime and security are paramount.

And with the advent of Ubuntu (and a few other variants), the novice user can do most any generic thing they want to do on Linux now such as email, browse the Internet, Write a doc, Make a spreadsheet, etc...all the stuff that average Windows users use Windows for everyday.

However when it comes to specialty stuff, like what we do here, Linux still has a lot of work before it's viable as a perfect alternative to Windows. And that was Linus' point when he was video-documenting his experience installing Linux from a fresh install, getting all the drivers installed, and getting a simple Steam game running. The problems he was having were easily explainable and avoidable had he been a Linux guru, but for a Linux novice, which he admits he is, it caused a lot of problems that were not intuitive or easy to fix. There were no guard rails to prevent him from messing up his installation. But for those gamers that are Linux gurus, they find that with some tinkering, you can get Linux to work as a gaming platform and surprisingly, the drivers for the big-gaming video cards are decent and stable. What I've yet to hear is what Linux does better than Windows when it comes to gaming that makes the experience worth attempting if you aren't a regular Linux user. What tickled me is he said that what is keeping Linux from being great are all the guru's reliance on the command line. And he's not wrong. Linux users for years have prided themselves on doing everything from the command line and not using the GUI. But as a result, the GUI's shortcomings don't get noticed and fixed by the very people most capable of fixing them. So despite the huge improvements that have been made over the past 10-15 years in the various Linux GUIs, none of the Linux GUIs are as capable as Windows.

As it relates to what we do, Linux' shortcomings aren't completely its fault. Some of it has to do with the tools we use being written in a language that caters to Windows (i.e. the .NET framework). And even though you can actually get .NET applications to run on Linux now, the Licensing mechanism for BE and EA, I don't believe are written to tolerate/support Linux. For example, BE/EA doesn't "want" to run within a Virtualized environment, and I believe when you attempt to run BE in Linux, it doesn't like how it is being run and won't even give you the opportunity to license it. The new hardware license dongle might actually fix this. I'm sure those dongles have Linux drivers. I haven't tried though.

Even though I consider myself fairly savvy at Linux, I still wouldn't choose it for my daily driver. I prefer to keep Linux as something I run in a VM or on a secondary PC.

[ChsReb]

I should have mentioned that the video you indicated is now private and unviewable.

Linux is my, as you put it, “Daily Driver.” I use it for all the daily chores.

Windows 10 is the speciality car. I mainly use it for Video Editing.

I’m not a gamer, but nothing takes hardware and software to the limit like gaming and video editing. Linux can do both but not at the level Windows can. If gaming is your thing with all the newest games, Forget about Linux.

What drove me to Linux was Microsoft’s “Data Collecting by default.” It just scares the hell out of me that some hacker will find a way to tap in.

Having said that, Linux does have some maddening issues that can drive you to a “Rock” haircut. The one that comes to mine is the blank screen after first install where Ubuntu creates a default Display that doesn’t exist. It took a while to figure out that you had to go in and make that non-existent display inactive,so I can definitely see why a novice could quickly give up on Linux.

Running BE in Wine might be possible. Never tried it, and I don’t have the hardware (Dongle) to attempt it. My past experiences with direct hardware control using wine were not encouraging and I doubt there is an existing driver to do so if I wanted to. As I understand it, Wine just runs the software, but hardware is accessed at the Linux level. That just ads another layer. I gotta retire the Vista machine soon and buy new software anyway, so more on that one later.

I’ve got a LattePanda 64/4 running Linux Ubuntu 16.04 with a patched 4.13 kernel, but the newer kernels won’t support the hardware and are beyond my ability to patch, so yeah, I been down this road before.

[ChsReb]

Linux will always be a year or more behind Windows with new Hardware. I’m not a gamer, but I consider it a fools errand for anybody but a developer to attempt to run anything less than one year old in a Linux environment.

If your base argument is that Linux sucks for gaming, IMO it absolutely does and probably always will.

Me, I just want to get my email, and surf the net securely without being spied on or hacked. Linux blows Windows away in that regard.

I still laugh at my brother. He codes regularly and develops Linux applications, but uses a flip phone and won’t consider buying a Smart Phone. Reason? Security!

[ChsReb]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkell ... users/amp/

Is it just me, or am I seeing more of these little “OOPS!” lately?

Linux issues like this are rare thus making Linux more secure, and Here is the reason I rarely use Windows based programs to access the Internet. There are just so few users of Linux, few hackers even bother to target Linux users.