kamrf = 1.121 at idle ?!

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:20 pm

I need a sanity check. Is kamrf of 1.121 at idle normal in closed loop? While not in idle the kamrf is something more normal like 1.0xx or 1.00x.

I have nothing to compare this to, as this is a new engine, and the first time tweecing for me.

If this is not normal at idle, what could be causing it? And, does it need to be corrected? The O2s are new and look very clean.

My tune is listed below.

SCALERS

Checksum Base Address-0
Engine Displacement-363
ISC Max Closed Throttle Idle-1100
ISC MAX Drive RPM-1096
Idle In Gear-850
Idle In Neutral-850
Injector Slope High-42
Injector Slope Low-50
MAF Voltage Max-4.99992
MAF Voltage Min-.099854
Rev Limit Half Fuel Off-7500
Rev Limit Half Fuel On-8000
Rev Limit Maximum RPM (No Fuel)-7000
Spark Knock Minimum RPM-8000
Throttle Body Airflow-.8830
Time At High Load To Force Open Loop-0
Transmission Strategy-0
Transmission Load Type-0
WOT TPS Breakpoint Voltage-2.5

TABLES

Exhaust Pulse Delay-14 on all of them

FUNCTIONS

Cranking Fuel Pulsewidth vs ECT ( all Y values * (19/42) )
ISC Drive Idle Air Flow
x-0, 848, 1008, 1504, 1952, 4080
y-0, 1.3438, 1.5938, 1.9922, 1.9922
ISC Neutral Idle Air Flow
x-0, 0, 0, 848, 1952, 4080
y-0, 0, 0, 1.3438, 1.9922, 1.922

MAF Transfer-From Pro M supplied & converted to 30pt

EXTRA

Set Base Timing To 10 degrees
Autolite AP3922 plugs gapped at .54
Fuel Pressure= 39 PSI w/no Vac
TPS Set At .96 to .98

CAR/ENGINE COMBINATION

1992 Mustang Coupe
A9L Processor
Neutral Balanced DART 363 short block (3.4x5.4x4.125) (10.8 to 1 Compression-Pump Gas)
HTM AFR 185 Heads
HTM Edlebrock RPM 2 EFI
HTM 236/230 Cam
FMS 42lb injectors
Pro M 80 (42lb injectors)
Accufab 75 MM Throttle Body
3.5 Inch Power Pipe (Home Made)
BBK 1 5/8" Longtube Headers
BBK 2.5" CAT H PIPE
Flowmaster 3 Chamber Mufflers
GForce T5
Fidanza Steel Flywheel
McLeod Clutch
FMS Aluminum Drive Shaft
FMS 3.73 Gears
255 lph In Tank Fuel Pump
FMS 2300K Cobra Brake Kit
BeCool Aluminium Radiator
Edelbrock Waterpump
130A Alternator

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:08 pm

Though i don't really trust CalEdits numbers, it would suggest you are about 12% to rich. What is your load at idle?

86GT · Post by **86GT** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:14 pm

EFIpunk wrote:Though i don't really trust CalEdits numbers, it would suggest you are about 12% to rich. What is your load at idle?

The car is running lean not rich. The EEC is trying to richen the mixture by 12%

89ragtopgt · Post by **89ragtopgt** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:52 pm

Yes i had a look at your site efipunk and am confused at your info it seems to be the opposite of what others say but i am a newbe and still learing

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:31 pm

What are LAMBSE, and what is your load at idle. It should be at least under 1v.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:36 pm

Lambse1 is around 12.1 and Lambse2 is around 11.4 normally.

Load is around 14 - 16%.

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:02 pm

you are in fact rich...try reducing your MAF

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:49 pm

If I'm running rich I would expect my O2s to be somewhat dark, but they are not. In fact they are very clean. And my O2 voltages are showing .3V to .4V in the datalogs.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:21 pm

Green-Jimmy wrote:Lambse1 is around 12.1 and Lambse2 is around 11.4 normally.

Load is around 14 - 16%.

This tells me he's not rich, he's lean and the ECU is commanding a richer mixture to compensate. If this is incorrect then please let me as I've been doing this all wrong :?

86GT · Post by **86GT** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:03 pm

You are running lean and the EEC is commanding a richer mixture to compensate. Look at the LAMBSE they will be lower than 14.64.

Try like below 13.00 on LAMBSE right? Take that MAF flow at the idle MAFV and multiply it by 1.12.

nate · Post by **nate** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:12 pm

Looks lean (by 12%) to me also. You could richen the maf by 12% in the airflow where the kamrf goes to 1.12 or maybe try lowering the inj low slope.

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:33 am

Ok...I had a total fu$King dumb moment. In my second post I ment to say LEAN.

Your load looks 'ok'.

I would just try adding to the whole MAF function since you are that far off at idle, the rest of the curve is probably hosed as well.

Sorry, for before the screen was a little blurry...if you know what i mean?

forgot...dont use the slopes to compensate for a poor MAF cal., they are not fuel adders!

Post by **2Shaker** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:00 pm

EFIPunk

Thanks for this last post. Your previous posts had me ready to question everything I have done around fuel. Don't feel bad, I've posted some pretty dumb stuff in the past, and I know others have too.

deron888 · Post by **deron888** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:16 pm

Not to change the topic, is his plug gap of .054(i assume its a typo, not .54) too wide? I just changed my plugs with 3923 gapped at .035 with crane ignition box and a vortech. Will this be a problem? I have not started the car because I am waiting for my TwEECer RT

86GT · Post by **86GT** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:46 pm

Yes, all S/C and or turbos need to have the plugs gap around .35. I dont think it would matter at idle, but .54 is to much even as a N/A setup.

EFIpunk · Post by **EFIpunk** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:22 pm

2Shaker, thanks!

Green...have you tried altering your MAF function?

On a boosted car it is important to read you plugs everytime you change them, but even more important to check them often while tuning.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:40 pm

I have not messed with the MAF function. I converted it from the 9pt to 30pt and thats it. I will try doing the MAFV x 1.12 at idle to see what happens. However, I don't really see what good that will do since its in closed loop. I mean, won't it just end up compensating for the change and leaning it out again. In OL I can see it making a difference. Again, I'm really just new to this. I do a lot of reading on here, but its really hard to digest it all.

I'll re-check the plugs and re-gap accordingly.

Do I need to get the load scaling adjusted so I'm at something around 20 - 25 ?

JOESTANGMAN · Post by **JOESTANGMAN** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:24 am

i ve have tried everything but changing the maf please let me know how you make out with the maf changes. I m not a big believer in changing the maf but if it works for you i will consider.

ps- this problem has been driving me crazy since i do not see any adverse effects on the plugs which tell me the car is running very well. I have my kamrf s within tolerence but my idle is exactly the same as yours 1.121 which is showing a lean idle.

good luck and keep me posted if you can.

Post by **2Shaker** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:31 am

Green,

I'm curious about where the ISC air flow numbers came from in the function. Also, let's see your values in the first few cells of the MAF.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:51 pm

Haven't gotten to make any changes yet.

Now that I am relooking at the ISC numbers they seem a little high. I've been struggling with them for a while. When I went through the idle procedure and used EA, it generated a very strange curve. It would start steeper than the stock curve (for the first datapoint), but then go up like a "J". This didn't make much sense to me. So, I manually calculated the first datapoint ( at idle ) and at 1008 rpm and 1504 rpm. I *assumed* the values were pretty good since my isc duty cycle is around 30-40%.

Another thing is I couldn't get the car to idle at 100 rpm less than my target if I removed the spout. So, maybe I need to increase my idle rpm to 900? and redo all the idle calculations?

Here's the first 8 values from the MAF
x-.0097656, .099854, .2998, .5, .69995, .7998, 1, 1.2
y-0, 3.4866, 9.8258, 15.848, 24.406, 29.794, 44.058, 63.393

Joestangman
I notice you are also running BBK headers (so am I). I wonder if the O2s aren't in the collectors far enough. I mean, the O2 bung is to deep. I am thinking about removing the crush washer on the O2 so I can get another 1 or 2 turns of the O2.

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate all the inputs.

-Jeff

89ragtopgt · Post by **89ragtopgt** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:34 pm

I had problems with the o2's located in one of the primary tubes. It also had a deep bung which did not allow the o2 to get into the tube. moved then into the collector with a short bung (all of the o2 in the pipe) and solved my kamrf problems which were way out of wack due to the o2 placement in the tube.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:47 pm

Just in the process of looking at my spark plugs and they are filthy black. So, what does this mean? Are my headers leaking and sucking in fresh O2? What else could it be?

Regards,
Jeff

Post by **2Shaker** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:06 am

Black plugs? You are not going to like this but that indicates its too rich not lean! I reread your thread here and I do not see if you cleared the EEC. Did I miss it, or is it something now to try? Also, I had asked you for your MAF values on the low end and I have not been able to compare them with my own because I am out of the country at the moment and dont have my tune with me.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:58 am

You mention I need to "clear the eec". Is this the same as clearing the kamrf data? I need to disconnect the battery for some period of time to clear that. I still have to pull the rest of my plugs and clean them up.

-Jeff

Post by **2Shaker** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:11 am

Yes, clear the KAMRFs and clear the EEC means the same thing. It will be interesting to see if all the plugs are consistently black.

indy2000 · Post by **indy2000** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:50 am

A kamrf value of 1.121 is max probably. It seems that is how hi caledit will go. You could be even higher.

If you have plugs showing rich and a kamrf reading lean>>>>Inconsistency.

You may have ; exhaust leak, 'sticky' or bad injector, or bad circuit with regards to the injector.

This assumes that the 02 sensor is performing properly.

I had similar symptom, was a short in the inj. circuit at the ten pin connector.

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:26 pm

I pulled spark plug 5 & 6 - both are filthy black. And I pulled spark plug 2 and its filthy black. This weekend the rest will get pulled and cleaned. I also ordered an LM-1 wideband. I want to verify that the O2s are truly reading lean. Plus I figure its a great tool to have even with a NA car.

Regards,
Jeff

indy2000 · Post by **indy2000** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:38 pm

You can verify injector operation with a mechanic stethescope. Just touch each injector body, a firing one will have a clear tick sound that will vary with rpm (rev it while listening).

Green-Jimmy · Post by **Green-Jimmy** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:58 am

Problem solved !!!

I installed my wideband LM-1 and confirmed the lean condition. Then I ran across a post on here ( I believe ) that mentioned about the smog pumping air into the heads which will give a lean condition.

The thermactor air diverter was dumping all the air to the back of the cylinder heads ALL of the time. It never switched to sending air to the CATS. I have removed the vac line going to the TAD which forces all the air to the CATS. KAMRF values immediately changed and started going to 1.0xx. I was really surprised at how fast the system adapted from the change and started bringing the AFR to 14.7. A ton of black came out of the exhaust pipes as well.

As far as spark plugs go, the stock gap range is .052 - .056. I'm set at .054. This is a typo in my original post ( reads .54 ). Sorry for the confusion there.

Now back to tuning my idle and driveability issues. After that its time to tune for performance!

Thanks for all the support,
Jeff

JOESTANGMAN · Post by **JOESTANGMAN** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:01 pm

i am having the same problem with idle going to kamrf 1.121 and kamrf all over the place. When you remove the vac line to the tad did you leave it off and have to had to replace anything to correct your problem.

i have been having this problem for about a year and has been driving me crazy. if you have any additional input i would greatly appreciate it. I have tested my injectors and with a hollow hose and they seem to sound ok. I do not have a wide band yet but will be getting one soon.

cheers and look forward to hearing from you.

if you can email me a line that would be great also
joe@tel-systems.com or reply to the board will do.

kamrf = 1.121 at idle ?!

hey green im having the exact same problem

hey green question about your problem

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