Closed Loop Neutral Idle Fuel Max Time - NIOLD

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:23 am

Has anyone ever looked in to this setting? I had an issue wiwth my car staying in OL on my drive home tonight. I reviewed my data logs that I had taken from when I started the car and turned it off at home. The car seemed to be running ok. The thing that makes me think this setting is to blame... I let the car warm up for several minutes tonight as it was cold and I wanted it to be warm. I remember starting the logging up after I had started the car. At about 230 in the ET column which I believe is seconds, the CL identifier changed from 0 to 1. From that point on... it remained 1 until I turned the car off. I did not restart it after I got home so I am not sure if it will return to where it changes CL/OL state normally.

I have not done any searches on this setting but I don't recall hearing this one mentioned in the past.

Post up any thoughts..

Brian

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:29 am

Are you saying the car drove all the way home in Open Loop? What were your KAMRF's reading during this time? Were the O2's switching? Since I don't know of anybody who has ever mentioned that variable, I would not assume that it has anything to do with the issue you had. You never adjusted that did you?

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:51 pm

Cougar5.0 wrote:Are you saying the car drove all the way home in Open Loop? What were your KAMRF's reading during this time? Were the O2's switching? Since I don't know of anybody who has ever mentioned that variable, I would not assume that it has anything to do with the issue you had. You never adjusted that did you?

Yep... I did not notice that the car was in OL until I was about 10 mins from the house... granted it was only a 25 min drive. The KAMRF's were reading 1 and the data log showed that. The O2's appeared to be switching as expected. I had not adjusted that value and compared it to the stock settings which it matched. I am going to adjust the value later today and see if it changes. Not sure what the max value is... but I did leave the car running to "warm" up so it was warm inside for about 15 mins or so... you know how the "guys" are... can not stop BS'ing about stuff.

sailorbob · Post by **sailorbob** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:15 pm

C/L Neutral Idle Fuel Max Time is only checked when at closed throttle so this shouldn't be affecting the OL selection process when driving. 255 seconds is the maximum value.

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:57 pm

sailorbob wrote:C/L Neutral Idle Fuel Max Time is only checked when at closed throttle so this shouldn't be affecting the OL selection process when driving. 255 seconds is the maximum value.

Not sure what was up... I drove to my friends house for a cookout yesterday... all seemed to be working as expected. Had alittle lean issue after a decel condition but OL/CL was working normally. I will pull the datalog to check again. I adjusted my Injector timing values after running the datalog from the trip to his house through EA. I adjusted the scaler alittle to get teh table lined up with EA but nothing more than those two. The CL Neutral Idle Fuel Max Time was the only thing that I could think that would match up to what I experienced. I did enable the Injector timing at idle flag. But I switched between two tunes while on the way home and no change... I will mess with it a bit tonight and see what I get.

86GT · Post by **86GT** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:31 am

Check for codes. If I remember right the EEC will fail over to OL if it goes into limp mode caused from a faulty O2 or MAF and so on.

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:10 am

Well I did some testing tonight. On the initial startup, with no changes to the tune, the EEC switched between CL/OL as expected. I was able to duplicate the "timed" change from CL to OL. I then changed the setting down to 15. It did as expected, and quickly changed to OL after being at CL in neutral after 15 secs. I don't think I had changed any other settings. I did change the Injector Timing and Injector timing in neutral and enabled the injector timing in Neutral flag yesterday before I left to go home.

My test shows it to be active and come close to hitting the times during the startup. Once it got warmed up, I noticed that it took longer for it to change into OL only. I also noticed that when I had it set on 15, it triggered back into CL after I had cracked the throttle alittle. I will post some data logs... they are in order of number... First test with 255 entered, second test with 15 entered, third test...car driven around right after started and allowed to idle after it was driven around for some time.

It proved that as long as the car was not allowed to sit and idle in neutral longer than the time entered into the setting, it switched between CL/OL as expected. Now I may be missing something. I will also post the tune I was using with the exception of the CL Neutral idle fuel max time value.

Brian

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:21 am

I will have to post them tomorrow... can not remember the page to upload them to my webspace.

brian

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:28 am

Ok.. got my data logs loaded to my webspace on my home forum.

http://files.kentuckymustangs.com/brian ... 0Datalogs/

The first log is the intitial test with 255 in the setting.

The second log was with 15 in the setting.

The third log was another test with 255, I noticed that with 15 in the setting, it changed back to CL after I had cracked the throttle alittle.

The forth log was after I took a drive around town, I turned the car off and started it again to see if it would happen again. This time, it did not take as long to go OL.

I did datalog my drive around town but it was too large to load. I drove around with the CL/OL changing as expected. I parked on the way home with the car running in gear with the clutch depressed and set about 175 seconds before it switched to OL. I continued my 2 min drive to the house and it never changed back from OL.

Please load these data logs and let me know what you think. I have also loaded my binary file that I was using. Granted, I changed the value... but that was all that I had changed.

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:39 am

OK, I noticed your HEGO wasn't switching much at all - staying on the lean side! I was wondering if you had changed the HEGO Bias, because if you change it too much, it will not be able to achieve closed loop as the O2 will spend too much time on one side & not switch enough or at all. You have leaned out your idle 8%! - the car is attempting to idle at an AFR of 15.8 and it cannot achieve this. I would not change more than 4% from stoich max.

You have another issue - it appears that you have a turbo? This will likely change the exhaust pulse delay and can add to your issues WRT closed loop stability.

Also, you have changed the injector timing to have the injector fire sooner with that E-Cam. It seems that if you were trying to keep gasoline from going directly out the exhaust, you would want to have the injector fire later.

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:31 am

Yes I did change the HEGO bias. MAybe I was thinking about the value alittle different. Refresh me on that setting again. From your email...

In my tune, open the "HEGO Bias - FN1353" table and look at the values @
0.24 load & 700 & 900 RPM. See how I have changed the values to 0.008
from zero? A positive "bias" number leans the mixture & the number
itself is how much it changes it from stoich lambda of 1 - so 0.01 would
change AFR by 1% (1.01 * 14.64 = 14.79 AFR). The stock A9L has that row
at 0.20 load BTW - I have scaled my load because my idle load is ~ 0.24.

I changed mine to 0.04 at 0.20 and 0.30 load for 700 and 900 RPM. If I read your email right, that would allow it to lean it by 4%? Correct? I do want it to idle quite lean so that it does not smell like fuel.. maybe I am going about it incorrectly.

Yes I do run a 60mm single turbo. I don't think I have messed much with the exhaust pulse delay. What should I be looking at there? suggestions?

As far as the injector timing... I used EA to provide me the values. Maybe I am not truely understanding injector timing and the EA software.

I am assuming that I need to back track alittle and start this portion of tuning over... please suggest anything you like...

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:54 am

I would do a little at a time & log the results. You have taken my tune that took me about 1 year to get down pat and tried to apply most of it all at once! You have applied 0.04 to hego bias when looking at CalEdit, but CalEdit is off by a factor of two! Aren't you using my TunerPro xdf? I have done actual experiments and proven that CalEdit is off by a factor of 2. So when I open your bin in TunerPro using my xdf, I see 0.08 for a HEGO bias! You really ought to just change it a little & see what happens - I tried to add more than 4% & the car would not run closed loop - same issue you are having.

Did you set the valve event to "Exhaust Closed" in EA to set your injector timing? That is what you want to do if you want to ensure the exhaust valve is closed before you fire the injector. This will keep any fuel from going directly into the exhaust with a larger cam that has some overlap.

If adding the turbo has added to the distance between O2 sensor & exhaust valve, then you will want to add to this delay value - if the distance is the same then it is not an issue.

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:32 pm

Yes I loaded your xdf file and currently using a modified version (I added a few comments on some of the variables for my personal use). I just checked it with your xdf that I had downloaded and mine still comes out the same. Last I recall, you said your xdf should be good to go and I did not need to adjust the base offset value. Does this still stand correct? I may have messed something up when I loaded it but not sure. Will check shortly. The xdf that I am using and the one I downloaded before from you show the offset at 0.000 with the subtraction check box not checked.

For my hego bias, I am only seeing 0.04 on those ones I adjusted. I did adjust the lower settings as well but not as much. THat may be where my problem is... But even at the 0.04, it should lean it be 4% correct? That should make it around the 15.22 range if all other variables are correct.

I checked EA and it was set with the Int Open as the event. I redid a quick log and it did change drastically. I will change that back. I see that your using the Special Injector Timing in Neutral setting? I tried that setting several times this weekend but since I was way off on the injector timing, I was not seeing much luck. With this setting... it looks like your using alittle different value than in your timing table? In EA... I may be setting it up incorrectly... I have selected the E303 cam with my 1.6 rockers, left the corrections at the default values they come up at, injector timing set with "stop", firing event was "int open" but now at "exh close". Do I need to use any overlap? It was set at 0. Again.. I maybe wrong on these...

I am only using the passenger O2 for my calculations since the drivers side is on the downpipe of the turbo which has both sides feeding it. It would have used the drivers side but it was not the primary O2. I have been doing this for some time even before Tunerpro... can not remember why I started but have been doing it each time. Should I go back to using the two? or even go the next step and use the simulated narrowband output from my PLX WB unit? But for your question.. they are close enough to the stock locations that I assumed I did not need to change them. The only difference is the drivers is after the turbo and has essentially both sides feeding it.

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:43 pm

Sorry, I guess I changed the HEGO Bias table a few days after I posted that one - I need to get an updated one posted. The conversion should be "X/1024".

"Stop" & "Exh Close" should be good. It says no overlap because here is none @ 0.050" lift, there is overlap though.

Not sure I can comment on the O2 situation. Did the Closed Loop work OK before you adjusted HEGO Bias?

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:56 pm

From what I recall yes it did. what are you saying I need to change? The offset associated with the xdf file?

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:07 pm

No, this has nothing to do with that. Press F2 when highlighting HEGO Bias table. Click on the "Conversion" tab. Edit the formula from "X/2048" to "X/1024" & it will be accurate (based on my experiments).

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:51 pm

Ok... I adjusted that value and now see the 0.08.

Care to explain what this conversion is doing? You stated that you had adjusted it to at most 0.04 and you went larger it gave you some results with the CL/OL that I am seeing. I would like to keep it as lean as I can, do you think this will be a bit much still?

In means of injector timing... once I get this adjusted to the correct values... do you think I may not have to adjust the Hego bias as much? What I am asking is if the injector timing is corrected so that no fuel is being fired during the exhaust open event (fuel going right out the exhaust, which I assume would cause it to smell like it is richer than it possibly is) should I need to make as much of an adjustment on the Hego bias?

Now... with the Ecam, I see that the intake event starts at 361 and ends at 540. But it does not show any overlap. But you said that it does have some overlap. what do I do to compensate for this overlap? Or will the values that EA already do this?

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:17 pm

Injector Breakpoint for the A9L.... I have not read anything on this in some time. Yours is quite lower than what I recall hearing others use in the past. What is your knowledge of what this varible does?

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:12 pm

4% is still a lot - I'm only leaning it ~1% and it seems to actually idle smoother and I really haven't noticed the fuel smell lately. I don't know of anybody who has leaned their car this much - you're setting the trend here - you may want to consider the possible extra heat & life of your turbo if it is running excessively lean. The conversion simply converts the number in the memory register (which is a whole number) into a number that is related to real life. It's actually done in reverse - they take the number - .04 for instance & multiply it by a value based on the size of the memory register, the range of values that can be used in real life & the resolution needed.

I really don't know how much injector timing will help - the turbo probably causes some backpressure which might minimize the problem anyway. You need to experiment with the injector timing and perhaps lean it slightly at idle until you are happy. If you really can't take the smell of benzene, toluene, xylene, ethanol & the other vile chemicals in gasoline these days then get a pipe with a catalytic converter in it! The neutral injector timing thing is just something I did because I could and like the idea that I can delay the timing in neutral a little more than the table even though I believe it prolly makes no difference at all.

As far as overlap, when you check "exhaust close" it will not fire the injector until the exhaust valve is on the seat, so this will ensure no possibility of firing fuel into the exhaust. At higher RPM you can have it fire sooner to get the entire pulse into the intake opening event.

Breakpoints - well, I just used the numbers Clint found for the Lightning which uses the Green Top injectors, then tweaked based on some datalogs. The low slope does't make as much difference as you might think & you will quickly compensate for it with either injector offset or MAF tweaks.

Brian-Mc · Post by **Brian-Mc** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:12 pm

Which direction do you suggest I go with the breakpoint? closer to the values you have come to or stick to the stock settings around 3?

I have adjusted my hego bias back some close to 1%. I am not sure if I am not having another issue at idle... it seems to do ok at times but then after a cruise when I come to a stop, it seems to hang alittle rich then. I was reading alot of older posts from you and mentioned a AEFUEL variable? I can not locate this setting in Tunerpro? All I see is a AEFUEL flag setting. What does this varible do? The Accel mult global scaler... stock it is at 0.39. You have mentioned in previous posts about going to 1. What is this multiplier adjusting actually? PW, A/F? Mine is still set at the stock value...

At lunch, I went for a nice cruise to datalog. I noticed that I am still getting some hesitation when coming off of a decel with a light throttle? I noticed that the timing is getting somewhat low around the 10-16° range when I am noticing the hesitation. If I hold the throttle alittle it seems to clear up. If I open the throttle alot, it hesitates alittle but clears up as the RPM increases. Am I seeing some issues with Spark & Fuel Lugging? I am not familier with the term lugging with respect to the EEC settings.

I did let the car idle for some time today when I got back from lunch. It seemed to stay in CL as I want. It seems to be requesting a pretty lean AF which I may be just asking for a too lean of a condition. The A/F is hanging around the 14-15 range which is good, but just would like to clean the smell up alittle more. I think I also need to adjust the MAF alittle on the low end as the KAMRF is indicating that it is leaning itself out at idle and the lower cruise conditions. (low MAF flow).

I know it seems as I am trying to do too much at once. I just have so much going through my head at once. not sure of what is being retained at times..lol I mean before I started working with tunerpro, I could beat the hell out of the car and not have any issues. But I felt it was lacking at times. Now with the Tunerpro, the car feels like a totally different tune. It seriously feels like it comes alive alot easier when doing a pull on the street. I have experienced more times where the tires are breaking loose in 3 and 4 gear than I did before. Maybe I am just leaning on the car alot more with this tune than before since I have a few things different.

Closed Loop Neutral Idle Fuel Max Time - NIOLD

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