[turboffr]

I started with the A9L.BIN and made the following changes but the car runs like crap. WB pegs all the way lean off the gauge but it's seems pig rich (smells like gas and plugs are black), and it loads up so bad I can't even drive it. Giving it gas it just bogs real bad and sometimes coughs in the intake. I have the stock tune loaded and when I switch to that the WB goes right into normal A/F ratios (just a little rich) and I'm able to rev it with no issues and even drive it down the road.

Just did a datalog of idle, and with my tune the AFR are in the 18's and LAMBSE in the 10-12's, when I switch the the A9L BIN it's almost exactly opposite, AFR in 11-14's LAMBSE in 18's . Motor feels so much better with stock tune. at this point I'm not sure if my tune is rich or lean. I've leaned out the bottom of the MAF curve and didn't really make much difference.

I've ruled out a mechanical problem or vacuum/exhaust leak since it runs fine with the stock tune. any suggestions on where I can begin looking. Just seems like once the computer sees the 60's listed as the injector and not the 19's it won't run right.

Scalars:
INJ Hi Slope = 60
INJ Low Slope = 66
Injector BP = 3.3362
Injector Offsets
15.9375 0.2813
15.0000 0.2813
14.0000 0.4063
13.0000 0.5000
12.0000 0.6250
11.0000 0.7500
10.0000 0.9063
8.0000 1.4375
6.0000 2.5625
0.0000 2.5313
0.0000 2.5313
0.0000 2.5313
MAF max voltage = 4.9999
ROM1 = 0
ROM2 = 0
EGR = 2 (none)
Thermactor = disabled
MAF = generic pro-m 60 curve (leaned out 1st six points 25%)
Fuel Startup OL = reduce values by 50%
OL Fuel table = adjusted high loads to 11.66 (don't think this is an issue since I can't even get there)

[dsblk93gt]

If the MAF is calibrated for 60lbers you should be leaving it set as 19lbers then just fine tune the transfer function.

[turboffr]

Yes the meter is calibrated for 60's. So if I understand correctly, I need to keep the injector settings at the stock high and low slope settings (19/26) and then just fine tune the MAF curve that came with the meter to dial in the a/f?

[dsblk93gt]

Yes the meter is calibrated for 60's. So if I understand correctly, I need to keep the injector settings at the stock high and low slope settings (19/26) and then just fine tune the MAF curve that came with the meter to dial in the a/f?

Yea, make sure you have it in OL of course. What did you do with the WOT timing settings?

[turboffr]

FN131 (WOT Advance vs. RPM)

16383.75 20.00
5000.00 20.00
3500.00 21.00
2600.00 22.00
2150.00 23.00
1800.00 20.00
1000.00 15.00
0.00 15.00
0.00 15.00

and a few changes to the spark base table (FN070)
500 700 900 1100 1300 1500 2000 2500 3000 4000 LOAD
15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 20.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 75.00
15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 20.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 60.00
15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 20.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 50.00
20.00 21.00 25.00 28.00 31.00 32.00 33.00 34.00 28.00 28.00 40.00
25.00 26.00 28.00 29.00 32.00 32.00 38.00 40.00 28.00 28.00 30.00
32.00 32.00 32.00 36.00 36.00 37.00 38.00 38.00 28.00 28.00 20.00
32.00 32.00 32.00 36.00 36.00 37.00 38.00 38.00 31.00 31.00 10.00
32.00 32.00 32.00 36.00 36.00 37.00 38.00 38.00 31.00 31.00 5.00

[dsblk93gt]

Others may chime in here, but usually in order to get the correct load calculations when using a calibrated MAF you need to adjust the engine displacement, take the original size injector divided by the new size (19/60) which is .316666667. Multiply that # to your displacement.

You have a way to datalog fuel trims so you should use your base transfer function that you have for your meter and using your fuel trims work from there on the transfer function for part throttle. I'm used to not having that option and using just the A/F to work with to fine tune the MAF transfer.

[turboffr]

one more question...should I leave the injector offsets and breakpoint at the stock settings as well?

[dsblk93gt]

one more question...should I leave the injector offsets and breakpoint at the stock settings as well?

It should be ok if you scale the engine displacement like above. There is another way to do it too, by using K Factor.

[dsblk93gt]

Make sure you use the calculated Kg/Hr. No matter what it is going to need work for sure. I would get the part throttle good then work on the WOT. I'd run safe timing leaving it a little rich then add some more timing once you have the transfer function correct.

[turboffr]

thanks for the help, looking back it seems so simple. Everything I read never mentioned that and I just assumed I need to input my injectos settings. runs much better with the stock settings. I'll fine tune the MAF curve and be sure it's rich when I start WOT tuning

[turboffr]

could explain the engine displacement scale calc. where do I input that value?

[dsblk93gt]

could explain the engine displacement scale calc. where do I input that value?

should be under the scalars...in BE it is SARCHG

[turboffr]

okay I see it. So you're saying I would to need adjust the engine displacement from 301.08 to (301.08*.3166666667). Any other way to adjust load, you mentioned K factor?

[dsblk93gt]

okay I see it. So you're saying I would to need adjust the engine displacement from 301.08 to (301.08*.3166666667). Any other way to adjust load, you mentioned K factor?

Using the other way, you would put the data in for the 60lbers like you had but then do this:

60/19= 3.15789474, take that number and multiply it to the entire right column in the MAF transfer table.

Usually you do this when you have a meter calibrated for say 30lbers but want to run 42lbers and not get the meter recalibrated.

[bender460]

I don't run a boosted combo so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. IMO I would really rethink this way of tuning. Just seems totally wrong to me.

[dsblk93gt]

I don't run a boosted combo so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. IMO I would really rethink this way of tuning. Just seems totally wrong to me.

It's nothing to do with boosted or na, it's the calibrated meter that causes the issues he is having to start with. Both the methods for dealing with the aftermarket meters is what I learned via my CMR and SCT Advantage manuals. He should be able to dial it in once the maf is setup correctly and he uses the EA to fine tune everything. I am just trying to help him get started, I'm sure there are more people in here that can help him out with using the EA to dial it in since I have no personal experience with it.he

It's not a huge deal with an NA car with the load calcs not being accurate but with a boosted car it's alot more important.

Maybe someone else has a better idea of how it should be set up as far as the calibrated maf....?

[turboffr]

I'm denfinitely no expert and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. dsblk93gt has been the only one to respond and what he says made the car run 100% better (actually it would barely run with the base tune I had in it when setting my injectors for 60's). It's a good starting point and I can at least drive and datalog ot to dial it in. I'm open to other feedback, just haven't gotten any. What does everyone else do when they run a calibrated meter that is meant to trick the stock EEC?

[bender460]

Ok thats cool. You need to remember all that the maf dose is measure air nothing more. Don't think of it as "calibrated". Is there any way you can temporarily install a stock maf? Or stock injectors? This is just to get all your settings going in the right direction. A good known constant (stock maf or injectors) will help. If I had to guess your injector voltage offset looks goofy. Can you verify these settings are right?

Load is very important on a boosted engine and is a little over my head. I would suggest staying out of boost for now. You have allot more tuning ahead.

[turboffr]

I got the offsets from the FRPP spec sheet. They a little different but not far off http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ic ... 3-lu60.pdf

I don't have stock injectors of MAF to install. Help me understand "calibrated" MAF meters. What exactly does Pro-M do to make a meter work with a particular injector size. If they are skewing the kg/hr at a given voltage designed for 19lb injectors, wouldn't I be in essence tripling the fuel if I change the injector specs to 60. Should I have purchased a meter calibrated for 19lb injectors? I'm a bit confused with this.

Just trying to understand why the car actually runs good with the stock inj settings and then is completely a mess and won't even go down the road or idle with all the settings for 60's in the ballpark.

Anyone have a tune for A9L w/ 60's that I could compare mine to?

[bender460]

You keep using the word calibrated STOP that. The only time it should be used is when there is NO tuning. Again the maf is a way to measure air NOTHING more. You don't need to trick the eec anymore you can actually tune it right now. The methods dsblk93gt suggested even tho they may work are WRONG.

An injector can supply enough fuel for a given amount of air. The meter you have will flow allot of air about that amount. Why would you want a stock MAF? You engine will flow more air than it is capable of metering? Can you post your tune?

[turboffr]

Here's a copy of the tune:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=21cf ... f6e8ebb871

I loaded the MAF curve using EA and the 9pts from the Pro-M flow sheet. Curve tracks the canned pro-m 60 pretty close.

It will start but won't stay running, runs good on stock A9L tune (albeit a bit rich)

Thanks for helping.

[tremec77]

Bender is correct. The way you are tuning it now totally goes against most logic. You need to get the injector HS and LS to the 60lb. settings not keep them stock. You need to get the HS, LS, and BP set by running the logs through EA. Then move on to the MAF curve. It will not run correctly at first but that is what EA is for. It will take time to get it dialed in but it will be the correct way and not like you have it now. You are asking for trouble tuning this way.

[Cougar5.0]

I don't run a boosted combo so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. IMO I would really rethink this way of tuning. Just seems totally wrong to me.

It's "5 years ago" tuning methods being revisited.



(and I agree with Tremec77 who posted while I was posting)

[tremec77]

I took a look at your tune and I would lean out the MAF curve 5% at a time. You have some really high numbers there and this is probably why you are seeing just a rich condition. Granted you are running a turbo and you are going to have higher numbers but I just think you have them too high to start with. You may have to lean it out a lot to get it to run good. Since you have a wideband, force OL and clear your KAMRF's. Then flag accel enrichment (AEFUEL) and transient enrichment (EFTRFF) so you can filter these out. Then go drive the thing around and run that log through EA. Be sure when you run the log through EA that you have the MAF curve that was in the car when you logged or you will be chasing your tail. Don't go WOT until you get the low and mid range running good. You may have to increase the numbers back up later to dial in the A/F.

[dsblk93gt]

I was just trying to help him out with what I've seen works, again, I never claimed to know it all. If there is a better way by all means try that, but I kinda feel like I'm getting bashed slightly for trying to help a guy get his car at least running.

[Cougar5.0]

Power adder cars need more than to be "just running" - they will break in a heartbeat if they lean out at WOT.

Note that if your LAMBSEs are commanding 12, the HEGOs think you are running REALLY LEAN and you need to find out why this is if you are indeed running RICH. You might have an issue with your HEGOs. Where are they located and how far from the engine and is the system sealed tight (no exhaust leaks)?

[turboffr]

system is tight, no exhaust leaks that I can find. O2's are in downpipe right next to WB sensor. Running on the A9L tune the car is commanding lean and WB is a tad rich so I think I can rule out a mechanical issue. Wouldn't the same issue most likely be present in both tunes? Taking the TwEECer out of the mix, if I just put on the meter and injectors the car runs exactly like I would expect it to. Just doesn't seem to like the tune I have for the 60's, but it seems to be in line with what most others are using. I know 2 cars are not alike, but this should at least get me going so i can drive and start datalogging. I'm stumped, but will be trying the tune with the 60's again today.

[cgrey8]

I was just trying to help him out with what I've seen works, again, I never claimed to know it all. If there is a better way by all means try that, but I kinda feel like I'm getting bashed slightly for trying to help a guy get his car at least running.

Nobody's bashing you personally, at least I don't think they are. But they are bashing your method. The method you are describing is an outdated method of tuning and hinges off the same methods used to get an engine running without a tune...which truly is lying to the EEC about what the actual running conditions of the engine are in an effort to coerce it to do something desirable. I will admit it may be a faster method of tuning to start with because things are likely to run better right off the bat. Ultimately as long as the right amount of fuel and spark advance is applied at the right RPM/Loads, it doesn't really matter how you tune the computer. But it makes things terribly more confusing when others review the tune and datalogs later and find a datalogged Load of 75% is actually 10PSI of boost or some such. Thus why keeping the stock settings for MAF and Injector Slope/BP/Offset is still lying to the EEC about what the actual conditions of the engine.

The other guys here are just trying to show that if you want the EEC to be more informed of the true condition of the engine, then you need the EEC to be aware of actual MAF, Injector characteristics so that when you datalog, you datalog boosted conditions as loads above 100% and thus you can adjust spark accordingly. As well, having the datalog filled with actual running conditions makes it easier to diagnose problems as well as makes it easier for others to review the logs and tune to help.

But it's up to the tuner how he/she wants to tune their engine. The only wrong ways to tune are the ways that don't work and blow the engine up! But of the ways that get the engine running right, there are some methods that are more correct than others to make the datalogs come out with lucid info that describes the true running conditions of the engine. If you ONLY care about the engine, then whatever works, works and nobody will know the difference. But if you want to share your logs with others so others can help you with problems, the datalog needs to make sense and 75% Load for a 10PSI condition is not lucid info and will cause as much confusion as it gives insight.

For your enthusiasm to help though is admirable and one I hope isn't stifled by the differences of opinion in this matter. Stick around. We hope to learn from others just as much as others learn from us...or at least I do.

[bender460]

In your tune I see that the barametric pressure sensor is not present??

[dsblk93gt]

Power adder cars need more than to be "just running" - they will break in a heartbeat if they lean out at WOT.

Note that if your LAMBSEs are commanding 12, the HEGOs think you are running REALLY LEAN and you need to find out why this is if you are indeed running RICH. You might have an issue with your HEGOs. Where are they located and how far from the engine and is the system sealed tight (no exhaust leaks)?

I know that, I have built alot of SC'ed cars in the last 8-9 years and never blown one up either. I was one of the few people to get in the 11's with a 1.5L KB SC'ed Mustang actually probably 6-7 years ago. That car also had one of the 1st KB kits installed in '93. I had KB do the chip for it. It was the 1st chip they had done for the 90mm LMAF actually. They were still using the 80mm at the time then changed over to the 90mm.

I don't care for the aftermarket meters personally as I had alot of issues with a Pro M when my car was ProCharged and blow thru.

The 2 methods I posted to deal with a "calibrated" maf were what is taught by SCT and Diablosport.

I'm always looking to learn more, but I don't appreciate being treated like I'm a 16 yr old that has never worked on a car. I never came in here saying this is the ONLY way to do something.

This is what I said, basically saying here is a method I know of that works..others may have a better idea...

Others may chime in here, but usually in order to get the correct load calculations when using a calibrated MAF you need to adjust the engine displacement, take the original size injector divided by the new size (19/60) which is .316666667. Multiply that # to your displacement.