[EDS50]

i am ready to create for a lack of better words a timing table or strategy which is easy to use. i have done a lot of searching and reading on this forum and have seen a lot of different ways of doing this. Since i am new to this I will ask. What I am looking to do is be able to use 1 table or function to control global timing if there is such a thing. Basically i would like to be able to open one table and be able to adjust for part throttle and wot timing without having to worry about spark adders coming into play. I think I have read where going with the spark sealevel table fn904a is the preferred way to go and turn other functions off or change their values so they are off. If I am heading down the correct path what function or tables would i need to modify to do this. Sorry if the question has been beeten like a dead horse and its a newb question I just want to do things the right way.

[EDS50]

anyone?

[cgrey8]

Assuming you are using a GUFx EEC:

• Set Z_SPKINT to Sealevel Only to "remove" the Altitude Spark table. This is the same as always pasting the same values in the Sealevel table into the Alt table, but without having to remember to do that each time you make a change.
• Zero out the Load column in FN125 to remove the Base Spark Table. Again you could accomplish the same thing by making the Sealevel table and the Base Spark Table the same values...this is just more convenient.
• Disable WOT spark functions via Z_WSPKSW

That should get you to where 99% of your PT/WOT spark adjustments are done out of the Sealevel table. If you have a working EGR and you have it still functional in the tune, you can also remove any spark addition it adds by zeroing out FN1121. However if your EGR is disabled, then no need to worry about it.

[EDS50]

Thank you very much. That is exactly what I was looking for. Once this is done where do I go to input or modify the timing values? Would I make changes in the spark function or sealevel table? It seems like sealevel table would be correct. If so do I need to change or add to the rpm headings since the values end at 4000 rpm in BE?

[cgrey8]

For Part Throttle/WOT timing, you'd use the Sealevel table. However for idle timing, you still use the Idle Spark functions. Although unless you are having trouble with the engine hunting at idle, it's best to leave the idle spark functions alone. I didn't have that option because of a hunting idle. But others seem to have little problem with idle spark causing hunting once they get the ISC portion of idle tuned right.

As for the column headers, you cannot add columns or rows to a table. The best you can do is rescale the column headers or row headers to better fit the range you'll be in. I too think 4000 is a bit low even for a near-stock engine that is quite capable of 5500RPMs. Values of 2500, 3750, 5000 RPMs seem a little better. But that's just me. Use the Scaling Functions to adjust what those column/row values are. In BE, there's a "link" to the Scaling Functions Above and To the left of each table IF the table is scaled using Scaling Function. You'll notice when you click the link, what you get is a search window. The top function in the list is usually the Scaling Function you want. The purpose of the search window is to let you see what all OTHER tables will be updated at the same time that you may or may not have realized/expected would also get adjusted (i.e. a table scaling function can be used by multiple tables).

[EDS50]

makes sense. Do I need to account for any part or wot spark adders to the values in the sealevel table or are the values in sealevel total timing including base and all other adders?

[cgrey8]

The values in the timing table assume a base timing of 10°BTC. So make sure you set it at that or your tune won't know that you have a "built-in" adder.

However any adder/subtractors are still in effect like the Spark Retard based on ACT (FN126) for example.

[EDS50]

The values in the timing table assume a base timing of 10°BTC. So make sure you set it at that or your tune won't know that you have a "built-in" adder.

However any adder/subtractors are still in effect like the Spark Retard based on ACT (FN126) for example.

Ok, I hope this doesnt sound dumb, Just want to be clear...lol. I am looking at the sealevel table. At 75.00 load there is a value of 21.00. Does this mean that 21.00 is total timing including base and any other adders/subtractors or is 21.00 not including base of 10 degrees and adders/subtractors. The way I think I understand it is 21.00 is total but just seems low at 4000 rpm. How would I go about controling timing lets say at wot 100.00 load at 6000 rpm? I think thats is where i need clarification since I cant modify the header columns in the sealevel table. I am assuming I have to use another table or scaler to do this.

[cgrey8]

In that case, 21° would assume you already have 10°BTC at the distributor. So 21° in the tune would be total timing...the EEC realizing it only needs to apply an additional 11° ontop of the 10° base to give an actual of 21°. This is why it is important that you set the distributor to 10°BTC base and not to something like 12° or 14°. Once you set it at 10°, don't think about it anymore. If you need more/less timing, add/pull it in the tune, not at the distributor.

BUT what the Sealevel table won't include is any adders/subtractors elsewhere in the tune such as FN126. So it is possible you could be at 2000RPMs/75%, and expect 21° advance, and get something less than that if other conditions are applying a subtractor.

[EDS50]

Ok so if i understand what you have taught me correctly With 21 degrees showing at 75% load and if I have a part throttle spark adder of 2 degrees (which I do currently) (and A base of 10) That value would really lbe 23. Also 1 more question on the combining of the tables. When I combine the base table and sealevel table which values do I use? Do I improt the ones from base to sealevel or just keep the original sealevel values? The sealevel values seem just a hair more aggressive in some areas by a degree or two.

[cgrey8]

...With 21 degrees showing at 75% load and if I have a part throttle spark adder of 2 degrees (which I do currently) (and A base of 10) That value would really lbe 23...

That's right. Any other adders would also add onto the 21 as well ASSUMING your Part Throttle Adder is truly adding, not subtracting. I say that because in a stock A9L.bin, 180°/75% doesn't appear to add or subtract until you exceed 196°. At 210°, Part Throttle Adder will add -2 or subtract 2 from spark. So if you have 21, you actually command 19 because of the -2 spark adder in FN1133 at 210°/75%...again assuming stock A9L tune.

Like I said, you said your tune is adding 2 at part throttle which just confused me. So I wanted to clarify.

Also note, when you disable WOT Spark Functions, you never enter WOT mode anymore or at least I don't think you do. If you don't, any PT adder/subtractor to anything in the tune is still active at actual WOT conditions. You might want to datalog a WOT run with these settings and see whether your EEC still enters "WOT" or not. This will require that you datalog Throttle Status (TS).

...Also 1 more question on the combining of the tables. When I combine the base table and sealevel table which values do I use? Do I improt the ones from base to sealevel or just keep the original sealevel values? The sealevel values seem just a hair more aggressive in some areas by a degree or two.

Use whichever values you feel are safer for your engine. The "correct" answer is go have it dyno tuned so you know what the best values to use are for your application and the fuel you burn. But for starters, you need to fill it with something. I'd say up to around 60% Load, it's OK to use whatever the stock values are. Some of those values may need to be backed off. Others may work just fine or could possibly be raised. But up to 60%, if you ping, it won't blow the engine up. It's just indication for you to note the RPM/Load the ping happened at and adjust the tune accordingly.

Unfortunately even ping is not a sure indicator of optimal spark. Using a ping sensor just tells you when the engine is definitely got too much spark. What it doesn't tell you is when you've gone past MBT (Max Brake Torque) and would actually gain power by backing off on the spark even if you aren't pinging yet. Ideally designed engines will have compression and fuel setup so that MBT and ping happen at close to the same time. But that's not always the way it happens. In the case of 87 octane, an engine may ping before MBT spark advance is met. Although running 93 octane in the same engine might push the Borderline spark advance (aka when it pings) to the other side of MBT which is why running higher octane often gets people more power...it lets them run more advance. The catch is if you go over MBT, your torque production does go down, but it doesn't go down by the same amount as being off MBT on the retarded side. Said another way, lets say you have a gas-burning engine that reaches MBT for a given WOT RPM/Load at 20° advance. If you run 87 octane in that engine, the engine may ping at anything above 18° advance. That 2° could have you missing out on 15ft/lbs of torque. Although if 93 octane is run in that same engine, the engine might be able to get to 22° advance at that same RPM/Load. For being 2° too high may only sacrifice 5ft/lbs of torque. And a dyno could find that 20° sweet-spot. Once you have a tune setup to command MBT for all RPM/Load conditions, you can run the lowest grade gasoline that won't ping at those values. You might be able to run 91 octane, or even 89. Or you may find that even 93 has its moments where you can't hit MBT without pinging.

[EDS50]

Like I said, you said your tune is adding 2 at part throttle which just confused me. So I wanted to clarify.

I am using:
KPS1 Spark - Adder for Part Throttle 2.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
KWS1 Spark - Adder for WOT 4.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
SPUCLP Spark - Maximum Advance 55 Deg BTDC sock setting is 45
These are the only timing mods I have made in the tune thus far. Is doing it this way like changing initial from 10 btdc to 14 btdc on the dizzy?

Also note, when you disable WOT Spark Functions, you never enter WOT mode anymore or at least I don't think you do. If you don't, any PT adder/subtractor to anything in the tune is still active at actual WOT conditions. You might want to datalog a WOT run with these settings and see whether your EEC still enters "WOT" or not. This will require that you datalog Throttle Status (

TS).

Interesting. Is it advantageous then to disable it? I am gonna have to datlog today.

Use whichever values you feel are safer for your engine. The "correct" answer is go have it dyno tuned so you know what the best values to use are for your application and the fuel you burn. But for starters, you need to fill it with something. I'd say up to around 60% Load, it's OK to use whatever the stock values are. Some of those values may need to be backed off. Others may work just fine or could possibly be raised. But up to 60%, if you ping, it won't blow the engine up. It's just indication for you to note the RPM/Load the ping happened at and adjust the tune accordingly.

How about after 60%? How are we controlling spark above 4000rpm? Especially if we are disabling wot spark function? Just asking because I am confused. If there was a dynotuner in the area that I thought was at least competent enough to perform more than a generic chip burn and send you out the door; I would consider it. lmao I have dyno tuning experience and thats exactly why I am learning to tune my cars myself. I am not looking for every last drop of hp and tq. I know the car is making pretty good power for what it is and I am more interested in the perfection of the driveability aspect. The driveability is what consumes my every thought (ok maybe not every thought) right now. I have dove into this olympic size pool of eec tuning head first and the waters are deep but nice and enviting.

[cgrey8]

...
I am using:
KPS1 Spark - Adder for Part Throttle 2.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
KWS1 Spark - Adder for WOT 4.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
SPUCLP Spark - Maximum Advance 55 Deg BTDC sock setting is 45
These are the only timing mods I have made in the tune thus far. Is doing it this way like changing initial from 10 btdc to 14 btdc on the dizzy?

It is the same as twisting the dizzy when you are at each of those conditions. So the PT adder of 2 is the same as having the dizzy set at 12 while you are at PT. And the WOT adder of 4 is the same as having the dizzy set to 14 while at WOT. I personally would recommend these stay at 0 and do any upping of the timing directly in the timing table instead of using an adder like this.

...

Also note, when you disable WOT Spark Functions, you never enter WOT mode anymore or at least I don't think you do. If you don't, any PT adder/subtractor to anything in the tune is still active at actual WOT conditions. You might want to datalog a WOT run with these settings and see whether your EEC still enters "WOT" or not. This will require that you datalog Throttle Status (TS).

Interesting. Is it advantageous then to disable it?

I would recommend doing this if you are running a boosted application so that you can vary spark more evenly vs using the WOT spark control is which purely RPM based and doesn't consider Load at all. If you are running Naturally Aspirated, it doesn't really make much difference other than it simplifies the tuning effort by removing the WOT functions from the equation.

...

Use whichever values you feel are safer for your engine. The "correct" answer is go have it dyno tuned so you know what the best values to use are for your application and the fuel you burn. But for starters, you need to fill it with something. I'd say up to around 60% Load, it's OK to use whatever the stock values are. Some of those values may need to be backed off. Others may work just fine or could possibly be raised. But up to 60%, if you ping, it won't blow the engine up. It's just indication for you to note the RPM/Load the ping happened at and adjust the tune accordingly.

How about after 60%? How are we controlling spark above 4000rpm? Especially if we are disabling wot spark function? Just asking because I am confused.

There's interpolation being done between the 4 cells of a table when you are at the RPM/Loads in the middle of the table. When you are above the top line, the EEC interpolates between the top two cells that represent your RPM. And when you are off the top AND off the right of the table, then the top-right most cell is the only cell referenced. Does that answer the question?

...I have dove into this olympic size pool of eec tuning head first and the waters are deep but nice and enviting.

I think you'll find once you get familiar with EEC tuning, that it is not that bad. You'll enjoy impressing others with your engine number flashing away on the screen and TRYING to explain to them what the various numbers mean. Some will get it, others will just get the glazed over deer-n-headlights look and just kind go "Hmm.."

[EDS50]

...
I am using:
KPS1 Spark - Adder for Part Throttle 2.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
KWS1 Spark - Adder for WOT 4.0 Deg BTDC stock setting is 0
SPUCLP Spark - Maximum Advance 55 Deg BTDC sock setting is 45
These are the only timing mods I have made in the tune thus far. Is doing it this way like changing initial from 10 btdc to 14 btdc on the dizzy?

It is the same as twisting the dizzy when you are at each of those conditions. So the PT adder of 2 is the same as having the dizzy set at 12 while you are at PT. And the WOT adder of 4 is the same as having the dizzy set to 14 while at WOT. I personally would recommend these stay at 0 and do any upping of the timing directly in the timing table instead of using an adder like this.

...

Also note, when you disable WOT Spark Functions, you never enter WOT mode anymore or at least I don't think you do. If you don't, any PT adder/subtractor to anything in the tune is still active at actual WOT conditions. You might want to datalog a WOT run with these settings and see whether your EEC still enters "WOT" or not. This will require that you datalog Throttle Status (TS).

Interesting. Is it advantageous then to disable it?

I would recommend doing this if you are running a boosted application so that you can vary spark more evenly vs using the WOT spark control is which purely RPM based and doesn't consider Load at all. If you are running Naturally Aspirated, it doesn't really make much difference other than it simplifies the tuning effort by removing the WOT functions from the equation.

...

Use whichever values you feel are safer for your engine. The "correct" answer is go have it dyno tuned so you know what the best values to use are for your application and the fuel you burn. But for starters, you need to fill it with something. I'd say up to around 60% Load, it's OK to use whatever the stock values are. Some of those values may need to be backed off. Others may work just fine or could possibly be raised. But up to 60%, if you ping, it won't blow the engine up. It's just indication for you to note the RPM/Load the ping happened at and adjust the tune accordingly.

How about after 60%? How are we controlling spark above 4000rpm? Especially if we are disabling wot spark function? Just asking because I am confused.

There's interpolation being done between the 4 cells of a table when you are at the RPM/Loads in the middle of the table. When you are above the top line, the EEC interpolates between the top two cells that represent your RPM. And when you are off the top AND off the right of the table, then the top-right most cell is the only cell referenced. Does that answer the question?

...I have dove into this olympic size pool of eec tuning head first and the waters are deep but nice and enviting.

I think you'll find once you get familiar with EEC tuning, that it is not that bad. You'll enjoy impressing others with your engine number flashing away on the screen and TRYING to explain to them what the various numbers mean. Some will get it, others will just get the glazed over deer-n-headlights look and just kind go "Hmm.."

Actually I have gotten a pretty decent understanding of it in a short amount of time with the help and support of this forum and its members. Without out it I would be as useless as a tennis helmet...lol But I still have a long way to go.

[EDS50]

Assuming you are using a GUFx EEC:

• Set Z_SPKINT to Sealevel Only to "remove" the Altitude Spark table. This is the same as always pasting the same values in the Sealevel table into the Alt table, but without having to remember to do that each time you make a change.
• Zero out the Load column in FN125 to remove the Base Spark Table. Again you could accomplish the same thing by making the Sealevel table and the Base Spark Table the same values...this is just more convenient.
• Disable WOT spark functions via Z_WSPKSW

That should get you to where 99% of your PT/WOT spark adjustments are done out of the Sealevel table. If you have a working EGR and you have it still functional in the tune, you can also remove any spark addition it adds by zeroing out FN1121. However if your EGR is disabled, then no need to worry about it.

I think I got it down. I did everything you said to do and so far makes sense. Now, do I take the base spark table values and paste them into the sealevel table? The reason why I ask Is that 21 degrees of total timing seems week from 4000 rpm and up? Or, is there other variables I am not accounting for? am I wrong in my thinking that with my combination I should be looking for 33-36 degrees of total timing at wot?

[EDS50]

There's interpolation being done between the 4 cells of a table when you are at the RPM/Loads in the middle of the table. When you are above the top line, the EEC interpolates between the top two cells that represent your RPM. And when you are off the top AND off the right of the table, then the top-right most cell is the only cell referenced. Does that answer the question?

So if I am at 5000 rpm, the ecu in that table is going to use the 4000rpm row and 21 degree column for timing? Dumb question but just want to make sure.

[cgrey8]

A dyno is the only "true" way to know what your spark should be. But I believe 30s is high for WOT spark advance. Boosted engines take even less timing than NA engines for max Load rows. Others would be better to state what realistic advance values are than I am. But for my Naturally Aspirated stock Explorer engine, I have to run my 75% Load (top) row as follows:
600_|_ 750 _|_ 900_|_1100_|_1300 _|_1500 _|_2000 _|_2500 _|_3750 _|_5000
3.00_|_3.00_|_4.00_|_7.00_|_15.00_|_19.00_|_21.00_|_22.00_|_22.00_|_24.00

[EDS50]

A dyno is the only "true" way to know what your spark should be. But I believe 30s is high for WOT spark advance. Boosted engines take even less timing than NA engines for max Load rows. Others would be better to state what realistic advance values are than I am. But for my Naturally Aspirated stock Explorer engine, I have to run my 75% Load (top) row as follows:
600_|_ 750 _|_ 900_|_1100_|_1300 _|_1500 _|_2000 _|_2500 _|_3750 _|_5000
3.00_|_3.00_|_4.00_|_7.00_|_15.00_|_19.00_|_21.00_|_22.00_|_22.00_|_24.00

So these are total advance timing numbers or are you adding base to the figure. Or is base included? I know you explained it to me its just not registering because I have this thought of spout adding 16 degrees to base; so if you set initial to 14 and you plug the spout in wot advance would be 30 degrees. y thinking may be flawed.....Please educate me one more time....lol

[cgrey8]

My base timing is set to 10°. Those are the values in my tune which should include the base of 10°.

Also note that those are values for regular 87 octane, not premium. With 93 octane, I can get a bit better than that. But for daily driving, I found I wasn't getting that much better fuel economy with 93...not nearly enough to justify the added $.30/gal. The engine doesn't run nearly as well with 87 and doesn't have as much WOT power, but again for the difference in price, it's just not worth it.

[EDS50]

My base timing is set to 10°. Those are the values in my tune which should include the base of 10°.

Also note that those are values for regular 87 octane, not premium. With 93 octane, I can get a bit better than that. But for daily driving, I found I wasn't getting that much better fuel economy with 93...not nearly enough to justify the added $.30/gal. The engine doesn't run nearly as well with 87 and doesn't have as much WOT power, but again for the difference in price, it's just not worth it.

Thats definitely understandable....So with your timing base of 10 degrees and 24 degrees wot at 5000 rpm is where I am trying to make heads or tails of. Where is the 14 degrees coming from vs 12 degrees difference with 3750 rpm at 22 degrees with a base of 10. Basically how do I calculate the differene between base and total... or is the difference irrelevant and what matters is total?

[cgrey8]

The computer is expecting the 10° base to be there. So all timing values in the spark tables is total timing. That's why I say that once you have the ability to tune, you should remove any advance you applied using the distributor.

However lets say you just wanted to run your distributor at something other than 10° advance, you could communicate that to the EEC using Z_CRKSPK. The intention of this scalar is for people that run an excessive amount of compression and can't crank with a base of 10° and actually need to run say 8° during crank. But if for some silly reason a person just didn't want to get out their timing light and reset it back to 10° from an advance of 14°, then you could use that same scalar to communicate to the EEC that you've got a base timing of 14°.

[EDS50]

The computer is expecting the 10° base to be there. So all timing values in the spark tables is total timing. That's why I say that once you have the ability to tune, you should remove any advance you applied using the distributor.

However lets say you just wanted to run your distributor at something other than 10° advance, you could communicate that to the EEC using Z_CRKSPK. The intention of this scalar is for people that run an excessive amount of compression and can't crank with a base of 10° and actually need to run say 8° during crank. But if for some silly reason a person just didn't want to get out their timing light and reset it back to 10° from an advance of 14°, then you could use that same scalar to communicate to the EEC that you've got a base timing of 14°.

cool. I guess I was confused because of this:
SPUCLP Spark - Maximum Advance 45 Deg BTDC

This is whats throwing me off but I am thinking this is for part throttle light load applications so the throttle is more responsive under light loads. Please correct me if I am off in my thinking again. Is ther any control or contributors to this function I need to be concerned with since I changed everything over to sealevel table?

[cgrey8]

The other spark adders/subtractors are in various places. The most common is the EGR spark adder. The other is the Spark adder based on ACT (FN126) or ECT (FN1133). So yes there are some mods to the base spark value defined in your spark table(s). Just note that Closed Throttle Spark is NOT defined in the Spark table(s), but rather in the Idle Spark Functions with its own set of multipliers/adders/subtractors.

[EDS50]

ok I understand how it works now. I have a question on the sealevel table. Would part throttle be considered say 50.00 on the y axis and down and above 50.00 would be wot?

[EDS50]

A dyno is the only "true" way to know what your spark should be. But I believe 30s is high for WOT spark advance. Boosted engines take even less timing than NA engines for max Load rows. Others would be better to state what realistic advance values are than I am. But for my Naturally Aspirated stock Explorer engine, I have to run my 75% Load (top) row as follows:
600_|_ 750 _|_ 900_|_1100_|_1300 _|_1500 _|_2000 _|_2500 _|_3750 _|_5000
3.00_|_3.00_|_4.00_|_7.00_|_15.00_|_19.00_|_21.00_|_22.00_|_22.00_|_24.00

How do I change my max rpm from 4000 to 5000 like yours?

[EDS50]

The computer is expecting the 10° base to be there. So all timing values in the spark tables is total timing. That's why I say that once you have the ability to tune, you should remove any advance you applied using the distributor.

However lets say you just wanted to run your distributor at something other than 10° advance, you could communicate that to the EEC using Z_CRKSPK. The intention of this scalar is for people that run an excessive amount of compression and can't crank with a base of 10° and actually need to run say 8° during crank. But if for some silly reason a person just didn't want to get out their timing light and reset it back to 10° from an advance of 14°, then you could use that same scalar to communicate to the EEC that you've got a base timing of 14°.

I should be in good shape. Dizzy is at 10 and fp is at 39 with the vaccuum line off. I am running the stock timing table for now with just a part throttle adder of 2 and wot adder of 4 but I will probably reconfigure that now that I have it set up for sealevel table by zeroing those adders out and just add it in the sealevel table.

[cgrey8]

How to rescale the columns/rows is a frequently enough asked question that I decided to just make it an FAQ topic. So here's a link to the FAQ:
What is a Scaling Function?

And yes, you are right about the PT/WOT adders. It's best to leave those as 0 in the Scalars and apply any additional spark you want in the tables themselves so there's 1 place for that info and the details of where spark is coming from aren't scattered about.

[EDS50]

I have a question on the scaling. Since I changed my scaling table to look like this now:

rpm row
16384 9
5000 9
3750 8
2500 5
500 0
0 0
0 0

Does it mean that between 2500 and 3750 it will use columns 5-8 for timing progressively or just column 5 until rpm reaches 3750 and then it switches to the values in coulumn 8 once it does? For example, if I am at 3000 rpm am I still using column 5 for timing or am I maybe using 6 or 7?

[cgrey8]

If you don't define a column, the value for that column will be interpolated based on how many column/rows you skipped and the value of the column/rows you did define. You can see the interpolated value in the affected table.

Some scaling functions aren't big enough to define each column/row explicitly. So "skipping" column/row numbers as you show in your example is pretty common. But it does not mean the columns/rows not mentioned don't exist. They exist and they are actively part of the tune. I should probably mention that aspect in the FAQ.

[EDS50]

If you don't define a column, the value for that column will be interpolated based on how many column/rows you skipped and the value of the column/rows you did define. You can see the interpolated value in the affected table.

Some scaling functions aren't big enough to define each column/row explicitly. So "skipping" column/row numbers as you show in your example is pretty common. But it does not mean the columns/rows not mentioned don't exist. They exist and they are actively part of the tune. I should probably mention that aspect in the FAQ.

So basically at 3000 rpm the ecu is just going to use a roling average of whats in the table if it lays between two defined columns? I am sorry but my brain is not grasping the answer you gave me.