[EDS50]

My fingers are still crossed as I've had things work for a while and then some how undo. Cougar I changed DSPTK to 0.0024 and the DASPOT to 0.30 doubled like you said. The changes did work as I have not had any stalling yet, however it still dips too low sometimes. Any remondedation on adjusting for that low dip.

Ugggh, I said that DASPTK was off by a factor of 25 in the definition file, thus 0.06 is EQUAL to 0.0024! By changing it to 0.0024, you made the number that's multiplied by TP (above idle) to set DASPOT for NORMAL (not quick) throttle movement 25 times smaller!

Basically all you have left is the 0.3 DASPTO for DASPOT since you basically zeroed out the normal thing that sets the DASPOT. When I said it was maxed out and I thought that was weird because I wanted to make it bigger, that wasn't a secret signal that I wanted you to make it 25 times smaller Now just set DASPTK to 100 then hit enter, it will go to it's max setting of 0.06.

BTW, for those who are wondering why this works, it's because larger than stock TBs provide more air for the same amount of throttle movement. So, just like accel fuel, DASPOT is based on throttle movement (TP counts * DASPTK), so making DASPTK bigger (which isn't possible since it's maxed out already) & increasing the offset (DASPTO) for quick tip-ins will fix this tip-in/out bog. I just made the DASPTO much bigger and it fixes any dip from quick tip-in/tip outs. It's working exactly as Ford intended it to.

Crapp I could screw up a wet dream..... So Cougar I set DASPTK to max 0.6 and keep DASPTO doubled at 0.3 right???

0.06

Whats is funny about 0.06, I'm not laughing :- (

What was funny is that 0.06 was specified by cougar and you asked if 0.6 was correct. There is a sustantial difference betweem 0.6 and 0.06. Understand now?

[roh92cp]

My fingers are still crossed as I've had things work for a while and then some how undo. Cougar I changed DSPTK to 0.0024 and the DASPOT to 0.30 doubled like you said. The changes did work as I have not had any stalling yet, however it still dips too low sometimes. Any remondedation on adjusting for that low dip.

Ugggh, I said that DASPTK was off by a factor of 25 in the definition file, thus 0.06 is EQUAL to 0.0024! By changing it to 0.0024, you made the number that's multiplied by TP (above idle) to set DASPOT for NORMAL (not quick) throttle movement 25 times smaller!

Basically all you have left is the 0.3 DASPTO for DASPOT since you basically zeroed out the normal thing that sets the DASPOT. When I said it was maxed out and I thought that was weird because I wanted to make it bigger, that wasn't a secret signal that I wanted you to make it 25 times smaller Now just set DASPTK to 100 then hit enter, it will go to it's max setting of 0.06.

BTW, for those who are wondering why this works, it's because larger than stock TBs provide more air for the same amount of throttle movement. So, just like accel fuel, DASPOT is based on throttle movement (TP counts * DASPTK), so making DASPTK bigger (which isn't possible since it's maxed out already) & increasing the offset (DASPTO) for quick tip-ins will fix this tip-in/out bog. I just made the DASPTO much bigger and it fixes any dip from quick tip-in/tip outs. It's working exactly as Ford intended it to.

Crapp I could screw up a wet dream..... So Cougar I set DASPTK to max 0.6 and keep DASPTO doubled at 0.3 right???

0.06

Whats is funny about 0.06, I'm not laughing :- (

What was funny is that 0.06 was specified by cougar and you asked if 0.6 was correct. There is a sustantial difference betweem 0.6 and 0.06. Understand now?

My bad you got me....fat fingers again. Now I'm LOL

[EDS50]

lol. I'm just messin' with you. Just out of curiosity, did you try resetting the base idle and and all the idle settings back to stock in the tune and just try cougar's settings? I am just afraid that we have gone way overboard with this issue with all the different settings and may have overcompensated by adjusting too many things. Sometimes its too easy to overthink a problem. I would try to set all the idle settings in your tune back to a stock a9l, reset the base idle and use cougars settings.

[roh92cp]

lol. I'm just messin' with you. Just out of curiosity, did you try resetting the base idle and and all the idle settings back to stock in the tune and just try cougar's settings? I am just afraid that we have gone way overboard with this issue with all the different settings and may have overcompensated by adjusting too many things. Sometimes its too easy to overthink a problem. I would try to set all the idle settings in your tune back to a stock a9l, reset the base idle and use cougars settings.

Thanks for the razzing...I'll try Cougars settings again with a fresh idle reset after I first give this new tune a fare shake.

[decipha]

i just read this whole thread and now my eyes neck and back hurt

so how does this correlate over to the cbaza strat?

[iamperson347]

I was wondering the same thing. I would have to datalog dashpot and plot it against rpm like cougar did but I'm thinking its going to be fn882a - dashpot pre position. I think its that function because as cougar said our cars use more air at idle and i don't think the stock values are gonna do anything for us, and this table describes what they are seeing in there strats. We will have to wait for someone else to chime in.

I also was wondering about having the ISC duty cycle at 44%. I mean if i set it with the car on it will be fine but i wouldn't be able to disconnect the isc.


David

[roh92cp]

Been on vacation for 10 days and havn't made any progress on the stalling issue. Since the begging of this thread I had been running my car in Forced OL, but last week switched it back to allow CL in hopes that adaptive may be able to work out the idle stall problem. Well its been a week and no luck the car still stalls but not all the time. It seems that I can drive for an hour starting stopping around town and no issues Idle hangs nicely and then. I then out of no where it stalls all over the place and no odle hang at all. Its like the decay function only works sometimes or intermitent like. I am trying to determine why this happens, but can't seems to find anything consistant right now. But it really seems like it goes from running good nice idle hand for a long time and then the next time I run the car the idle just dives down everytime and it wants to stall all over the place.

[patrickmx2]

Been on vacation for 10 days and havn't made any progress on the stalling issue. Since the begging of this thread I had been running my car in Forced OL, but last week switched it back to allow CL in hopes that adaptive may be able to work out the idle stall problem. Well its been a week and no luck the car still stalls but not all the time. It seems that I can drive for an hour starting stopping around town and no issues Idle hangs nicely and then. I then out of no where it stalls all over the place and no odle hang at all. Its like the decay function only works sometimes or intermitent like. I am trying to determine why this happens, but can't seems to find anything consistant right now. But it really seems like it goes from running good nice idle hand for a long time and then the next time I run the car the idle just dives down everytime and it wants to stall all over the place.

I think you and I share the EXACT same problem and level of frustration. I'm in CBAZA but I think you have a similar tuning area.

This is my thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15241

Do this, look for these two similar functions. RAISE the air in the LOWER rpms. And YES, both areas effect my car. Even though it's a 5 speed.

1) FN875D IDLE DESIRED IDLE AIR FLOW DRIVE
Notice the odd high figures in the lower rpm's. I cannot find this in any stock tune. They always trail to lower numbers.

1048560.0000 1.0000
1504.0000 0.6001
1120.0000 1.0000
816.0000 1.0000
704.0000 1.0000
592.0000 4.0000
496.0000 4.0000
304.0000 4.0000
0.0000 4.0000

2) FN875N IDLE ISC Neutral IDLE AIR

1048560.0000 2.0000
2000.0000 1.0000
704.0000 0.8999
496.0000 0.7998
304.0000 4.0000
0.0000 4.0000
0.0000 3.0000
0.0000 3.0000

[roh92cp]

I was not able to get the same numbers in as you. GUFB would not allow higher than 1.99 in the Lb/mn air flow. I hope its still works.

FN875D ISC Drive idle air

4080 1.00
1120 0.60
816 1.00
704 1.99
592 1.99
0 1.99


FN875n ISC netural idle

4080 1.99
2000 1.00
704 0.80
496 0.79
304 1.99
0 1.99

[patrickmx2]

Well I know a 3 and a 4 works in CBAZA. For giggles I put it in like around 900-1000 rpm and the car reved up over 2500 rpm.

What seems crazy is it didn't stall or go too lean. I mean hey, remove a vacuum line and it revs up means too much fuel. Adding air doing the same thing isn't too much fuel though. I have set my low slope as high as 50 for 36lb injectors and also tried to command leaner mixtures, it starts idling rough and missing.

What is going to be cool is setting this on a position for a switch. A 5 speed car with a built in rev feature makes it easier to set up on the starting line. I used to do it with the A/C rpm control. Bypass the pressure switch and remove the compressor wire, turn on the A/C and the engine ramps up.

Let me know how it turns out.

[roh92cp]

I think I may have found the culprit in my idle issue or at least the major part (parasitic drag on the motor from the KB), and here is why. Recently my drive belt broke on the way home from work. Of course the car ran completely different without powersteering, fan running, alt and of course spinning the large mass of the KB rotors. Besides the lack of power and a very quiet motor I noticed that all the tranitions from idle to part throttle were smooth. I no longer had a dipping idle that would surge up and then stall and even my idle decay rate seemed to be more sonsistant and stock like. I have posted this on another forum and one response was that even KB claimed that the larger blowers caused idle problems becasue of parasitic drag. I run a 2.1 liter Kb, not that big but all these problems started when I upgraded to A2A and of course a larger crank pulley and smaller blower pulley at the same time. This caused more drag on the motor for sure and the larger crank pulley also spins all the accessories faster as well even more drag. I remember know at one point when I was tunning I put back the stock crank pulley and some of the idle problems went away, but it never dawned on me it was a major factor in my stalling and idle issue to this point.

I also think I have had and may still have some tunning issues that may be less than perfect and may make the idle susceptible to parasitic drag. Now I'm trying to figure out what would be a good place to start in tunning for this. I have tried the power steering functions but they seem to have no affect at all. There must another way to approach tunning a motor with high parasitic drag.

[cgrey8]

I would start with FN879 and FN882. But I wouldn't be surprised if you also need to tweak FN875D and FN875N. If you have a manual tranny, you possibly may need to adjust FN880 so shifts between gears don't drop the RPMs too fast. Read over what each of these functions do, and see if there's any combination of adjustments in these functions that improves things.

With zero experience tuning for a supercharger, I have no clue which ones will be the magic functions. But based purely on what you are describing, I am fairly confident these are the functions involved with correcting your problem or at least helping with it.

[Shaker666]

Thank you all for posting... this thread is truly a gem. I went from having the worst warm start idle hunt issue to rock solid idle within a few minutes of research here. Kudos to Cougar5.0 for his very detailed description of how he resolved his problems. Works for me 100% too.

[Cougar5.0]

Thank you all for posting... this thread is truly a gem. I went from having the worst warm start idle hunt issue to rock solid idle within a few minutes of research here. Kudos to Cougar5.0 for his very detailed description of how he resolved his problems. Works for me 100% too.

I've been away from car stuff for a while (new job, pissed at car breaking rear-ends) and was surprised to see this thread still kicking around. Even though the O/P is still having issues, my idle 'dip' was improved considerably as a result of what I did in researching how to help fix his idle problems - lol.

[EDS50]

Thank you all for posting... this thread is truly a gem. I went from having the worst warm start idle hunt issue to rock solid idle within a few minutes of research here. Kudos to Cougar5.0 for his very detailed description of how he resolved his problems. Works for me 100% too.

I've been away from car stuff for a while (new job, pissed at car breaking rear-ends) and was surprised to see this thread still kicking around. Even though the O/P is still having issues, my idle 'dip' was improved considerably as a result of what I did in researching how to help fix his idle problems - lol.

Its good to see you back. Not only is the op still having his idle issue, mine came back as well. No matter how I set the idle settings, with the a/c on and only with the a/c on the idle wants to fall fast and shoot passed desired rpm and stall the car. This happens even with the proper isc duty cycle.

[roh92cp]

My car has been in winter shutdown know for 2 months. Its getting new water pump, fixed my meth line leak so I'll be hooking meth up in the spring. I just wired my number 5 runner ACT sensor so I can data log that and compare with the ACT sensor I use now in the HPX slot style MAF in the I/C pipe. My KB front case was resealed as I was having a little oil leakage. And as part of this winters projects I've sent my QH back to Maotes for a reflash to the new 1.6 version along with the 2010 version of BE. The new version of QH is suppose to have fixed some problems many were having including myself with tunes going bad, tunes switching on there own, tunes not switching over when selected. I'm hoping with a trouble free QH version 1.6 I can get to the stalling issue without anymore hardware of software problems confusing me. Ahh yes a fresh start.

[EDS50]

My car has been in winter shutdown know for 2 months. Its getting new water pump, fixed my meth line leak so I'll be hooking meth up in the spring. I just wired my number 5 runner ACT sensor so I can data log that and compare with the ACT sensor I use now in the HPX slot style MAF in the I/C pipe. My KB front case was resealed as I was having a little oil leakage. And as part of this winters projects I've sent my QH back to Maotes for a reflash to the new 1.6 version along with the 2010 version of BE. The new version of QH is suppose to have fixed some problems many were having including myself with tunes going bad, tunes switching on there own, tunes not switching over when selected. I'm hoping with a trouble free QH version 1.6 I can get to the stalling issue without anymore hardware of software problems confusing me. Ahh yes a fresh start.

We will keep updating your thread with our findings if it helps so you can refer back to it when you are ready.

[roh92cp]

My car has been in winter shutdown know for 2 months. Its getting new water pump, fixed my meth line leak so I'll be hooking meth up in the spring. I just wired my number 5 runner ACT sensor so I can data log that and compare with the ACT sensor I use now in the HPX slot style MAF in the I/C pipe. My KB front case was resealed as I was having a little oil leakage. And as part of this winters projects I've sent my QH back to Maotes for a reflash to the new 1.6 version along with the 2010 version of BE. The new version of QH is suppose to have fixed some problems many were having including myself with tunes going bad, tunes switching on there own, tunes not switching over when selected. I'm hoping with a trouble free QH version 1.6 I can get to the stalling issue without anymore hardware of software problems confusing me. Ahh yes a fresh start.

We will keep updating your thread with our findings if it helps so you can refer back to it when you are ready.

Thats great buddy thanks for keeping me in touch.

[cgrey8]

...No matter how I set the idle settings, with the a/c on and only with the a/c on the idle wants to fall fast and shoot passed desired rpm and stall the car. This happens even with the proper isc duty cycle.

Have you tried using ACPPM and DACPPM scalars to compensate manually for AC load? I had to add quite a bit to ACPPM to keep the RPMs from dipping when I turn the AC on. I have ACPPM set to .36 and DACPPM set to .31. With .36, the AC doesn't phase the engine when it kicks in. When it kicks out, the RPMs are just slightly high but "Closed Loop RPM control" works the ISC DC down to where it needs to be to maintain desired RPM. I haven't noticed any other adverse problems with and without AC once I got those scalars set. I don't know that they'll help you like they did me, but if you haven't tried them, I would see what they can do for you.

[EDS50]

...No matter how I set the idle settings, with the a/c on and only with the a/c on the idle wants to fall fast and shoot passed desired rpm and stall the car. This happens even with the proper isc duty cycle.

Have you tried using ACPPM and DACPPM scalars to compensate manually for AC load? I had to add quite a bit to ACPPM to keep the RPMs from dipping when I turn the AC on. I have ACPPM set to .36 and DACPPM set to .31. With .36, the AC doesn't phase the engine when it kicks in. When it kicks out, the RPMs are just slightly high but "Closed Loop RPM control" works the ISC DC down to where it needs to be to maintain desired RPM. I haven't noticed any other adverse problems with and without AC once I got those scalars set. I don't know that they'll help you like they did me, but if you haven't tried them, I would see what they can do for you.

I remember you and I talking about them back in the summer when you were working on getting your a/c fixed. I set acppm to 0.3999. Problem is if I go any higher than that the idle becomes out of range for me and will hover at 1300 coming to a stop and make its final rest on 950-1000 most of the time. Sometimes it will still dip. I was really hoping to be able to get my idle closer to 800-850 with the a/c on because in the summer the high idle is just such a heat generator in traffic. I did not mess with dacppm as you have but will give it a try. This is the only area as of late that I have not been able to master, a/c off is perfect; a/c on not so perfect...lol. Do you know what you are showing in your logs for ipsibr and iscdty at idle? What does your truck idle at? I have tried numerous times also to set base idle to 700 with my cam so with the isc plugged in it idles at 800-820 with the a/c off but I dont know if I am asking the car for too much to idle that low. I thought it would be doable.

[BobCat]

i haven't read through the entire thread but just a couple quick suggestions.... Asking a Stage 1 TFS, E-303, or any other similar camshafts with a narrow LSA to idle under 800rpm is a HUGE task. The valve events don't create enough vacuum to properly distribute the fuel and there is enough revision that you will constantly fight a rolling idle.

Another thing to note is everyone keeps using the ISC airflow as the main tuning device. I however only make slight adjustments to this function in most cases. If all of the idle scalars are adjusted by the ratio of change of the throttle body then the functions are much more accurate in stock form. Adjust the Throttle Body Air Flow scalar to whatever your combo requires and then adjust the idle screw to achieve near 0 when datalogging ISC integrator. Just by doing this you'll be very very close to your actual goal.

Just my .02.....it is pointless to try and tune around a mechanical issue yet so many are so hesitant to put down the laptop and pick up a screwdriver lol

[iamperson347]

If all of the idle scalars are adjusted by the ratio of change of the throttle body then the functions are much more accurate in stock form.

In this do you mean the ratio of throttle body size change or throttle body airflow scalar change?

I've been experimenting with locking ISC DC and just dataloging airflow and averaging manually. Its semi decent but i think i gonna lock the timing to and see how that does... (say 18* and then just datalog different ISC DC) This way everythinng will be constant (or at least the two main Idle control mechanisms should be) only leaving pure airflow.

This method your talking about i might also try. Im CBAZA j4j1 and i havent been able to get it right since ive been tuning Either a decel issue or a hanging issue most of the time.

[EDS50]

i haven't read through the entire thread but just a couple quick suggestions.... Asking a Stage 1 TFS, E-303, or any other similar camshafts with a narrow LSA to idle under 800rpm is a HUGE task. The valve events don't create enough vacuum to properly distribute the fuel and there is enough revision that you will constantly fight a rolling idle.

Another thing to note is everyone keeps using the ISC airflow as the main tuning device. I however only make slight adjustments to this function in most cases. If all of the idle scalars are adjusted by the ratio of change of the throttle body then the functions are much more accurate in stock form. Adjust the Throttle Body Air Flow scalar to whatever your combo requires and then adjust the idle screw to achieve near 0 when datalogging ISC integrator. Just by doing this you'll be very very close to your actual goal.

Just my .02.....it is pointless to try and tune around a mechanical issue yet so many are so hesitant to put down the laptop and pick up a screwdriver lol

What you say makes sense and the thing that strikes me the most is the fact that vacuum is most likely the main contributor here. Back in the day idle with carb set ups was usually always set to the best vacuum readings. I really didnt think 800-850 was that unobtainable with a baby cam like my tfs stage 1 or similar e303. What idle setting do you find that works for you with these cams...900rpm or so?

[Cougar5.0]

I've got a Comp XE cam (XE270HR-12) that gives about 14 in Hg of vacuum. I'm able to get a good idle at 768 RPM - about 100 above stock. I think the E and TFS1 give about 10 - 12 in Hg vacuum and I would expect that you should be able to get a decent idle at 825 - 875 RPM using a few of the tricks discussed in this thread.

[BobCat]

If all of the idle scalars are adjusted by the ratio of change of the throttle body then the functions are much more accurate in stock form.

In this do you mean the ratio of throttle body size change or throttle body airflow scalar change?

I've been experimenting with locking ISC DC and just dataloging airflow and averaging manually. Its semi decent but i think i gonna lock the timing to and see how that does... (say 18* and then just datalog different ISC DC) This way everythinng will be constant (or at least the two main Idle control mechanisms should be) only leaving pure airflow.

This method your talking about i might also try. Im CBAZA j4j1 and i havent been able to get it right since ive been tuning Either a decel issue or a hanging issue most of the time.

Assume you are running a 75mm throttle body you would then change the Throttle Body Airflow Scalar "ITHBMA" by the ratio of change in size from current to stock.

75mm "aftermarket" / 55mm "stock" = 1.36 multiply the stock value of .5500 lb/min by the 1.36 correction factor and enter this as your new TB Airflow Scalar

After this warm up the vehicle and set the idle scalar slightly higher than desired and then use the TB setscrew to adjust the idle to where the "ISCDTY" ISC duty cycle is near the desired duty cycle of 35% and the "IPSIBIR" Idle Air Integrator is near 0.

After this is done you can now start calculating the ISC Neutral/Drive Idle Air accurately and also decrease your idle until the camshaft profile starts causing revision.

[BobCat]

i haven't read through the entire thread but just a couple quick suggestions.... Asking a Stage 1 TFS, E-303, or any other similar camshafts with a narrow LSA to idle under 800rpm is a HUGE task. The valve events don't create enough vacuum to properly distribute the fuel and there is enough revision that you will constantly fight a rolling idle.

Another thing to note is everyone keeps using the ISC airflow as the main tuning device. I however only make slight adjustments to this function in most cases. If all of the idle scalars are adjusted by the ratio of change of the throttle body then the functions are much more accurate in stock form. Adjust the Throttle Body Air Flow scalar to whatever your combo requires and then adjust the idle screw to achieve near 0 when datalogging ISC integrator. Just by doing this you'll be very very close to your actual goal.

Just my .02.....it is pointless to try and tune around a mechanical issue yet so many are so hesitant to put down the laptop and pick up a screwdriver lol

What you say makes sense and the thing that strikes me the most is the fact that vacuum is most likely the main contributor here. Back in the day idle with carb set ups was usually always set to the best vacuum readings. I really didnt think 800-850 was that unobtainable with a baby cam like my tfs stage 1 or similar e303. What idle setting do you find that works for you with these cams...900rpm or so?

For most of my customers I set the idle between 850-950rpm depending on the combo. Most people can live with the idle being 50rpm higher than desired but a rolling idle isn't acceptable.

[EDS50]

What is the pid for the ISC Transfer Function in the x3z? Are you referring to fn800?

[BobCat]

What is the pid for the ISC Transfer Function in the x3z? Are you referring to fn800?

I mis named the ISC Idle/Drive Airflow in the above post.... I corrected it now. The ISC transfer function shouldn't need to be touched unless you change the IAC Valve.

Good catch..

[EDS50]

What is the pid for the ISC Transfer Function in the x3z? Are you referring to fn800?

I mis named the ISC Idle/Drive Airflow in the above post.... I corrected it now. The ISC transfer function shouldn't need to be touched unless you change the IAC Valve.

Good catch..

Cool. Then you are referring to fn875n/d. So this is where I and I think the op are in a bind. I get through all the steps you mentioned. Car idles 870 (set to 848), iscdty is 36.07%, ipsibr is 0.0lambses and afr are even @ 14.4, kamrfs are 1.00, spark is 19 deg. and all is good until I turn the a/c on. Car will maintain idle fine, go to rev it to 2000 rpm and it will shoot passed set/desired rpm and fall to about 500 rpm and shoot back up 1400 and back down again 500 and then it will level out. If I am driving and push in the clutch sometimes it will idle down to set rpm perfect, other times it will just drop really fast and stall.

[Chucko]

Assume you are running a 75mm throttle body you would then change the Throttle Body Airflow Scalar "ITHBMA" by the ratio of change in size from current to stock.

75mm "aftermarket" / 55mm "stock" = 1.36 multiply the stock value of .5500 lb/min by the 1.36 correction factor and enter this as your new TB Airflow Scalar

This "correction factor" is proportional to diameter... or cross-sectional area??