[Diabolic1]

As soon as I make a change it will lean from 14:3.1+/- and jump to 15:3.1 and then begin to settle back to 14:3.1???? It's adjusting itself back to stock. I have the adaptives turned off I believe. I have commanded O/L at a minimum of .75 tps volts and it idles at .98 so it should stay in O/L I think. I make changes to the VE table in the cells the truck is using at idle and it makes a quick but temporary change. I can change the cell it idles in the fuel base table to 15:3 and it will hit a 15+ a/f ratio for a second and then immediately come back to 14.3. No matter how I try it, the A/F ratio wants to return to 14.3 at idle.

WHATS GOING ON HERE?

Oh it's a 93 Lightning using a LHBLO Strategy and C3P2 calibration, and is SD.

[sailorbob]

Are you datalogging the OLFLG to verify that you are in open loop fuelling mode? I suspect that you are still in closed loop.

Assuming you are using the 'O/L Threshold vs RPM (aka FN311) function with the output set to 0.75v then this will not activate open loop until the throttle is opened. This is because the output values in FN311 are the relative throttle position whilst the 0.98v is the absolute throttle position I expect.

From your screen shot I also see there is an error with the 'Adaptive Control ACT Max' (aka AFACT2) scalar, it is not set up as a signed parameter.

[Diabolic1]

Is that the same as TP_HYS_OL= Fuel Open Loop Threshold Hysteresis--------------.075 volts?

I have that and FN311 Fuel Minimum TP for Open Loop------------------------------

RPM Volts
16380 1.75
2810 1.75
2800 5.12
0 5.12
0 5.12
0 5.12
0 5.12

I set all the values in this table to .75 and my logic being that since it's above .75 at idle(.95volts) that it forces o/l during idle. Is this correct? I do want it to be in O/L to set my idle afr by manipulating the VE table FN021 right?

[Diabolic1]

I don't have OFLAG yet. Adam is sending me the updated .cry file tomorrow with that selectable in Datalogging. I cannot confirm at this time.

[sailorbob]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Is that the same.....'; hysteresis values are added or subtracted to a value to avoid short cycling about a value.

The 0.95v you are seeing at idle is the absolute throttle position whilst the output of FN311 is the relative throttle position. The relative throttle position is the absolute throttle position minus the closed throttle position.

The 'VE Scalar for MAP Over Exhaust Pressure' (aka FN021) provides the row scaling for the 'Volumetric Efficiency Table' (aka FN1320) and 'Volumetric Efficiency Torque Table' (aka FN1420) tables.

[Diabolic1]

I understand better now about the TP voltage. So in laymans terms, how do I put my truck in constant open loop? Do I need it in open loop to adjust the A/F the way I want it, then turn back on adpatives, then put it back into normal operation mode utilizing both open and closed loop? I'm not sure what to use for the VE table. Do I use FN1320 or FN1420? Here is a screen shot of my FN021, but I'm not sure it's set correctly or how to set it correctly. Any help in that area??

[sailorbob]

how do I put my truck in constant open loop

Setting the 'A/F Ratio for O/L' (aka LAMRICH) value to a very lean A/F ratio should do this, verify it by datalogging the OLFLG flag.

Do I need it in open loop to adjust the A/F the way I want it, then turn back on adpatives, then put it back into normal operation mode utilizing both open and closed loop? I'm not sure what to use for the VE table.

See the middle of this post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16818&p=86713&#p86713

Do I use FN1320 or FN1420?

Adjust both, FN1320 is the primary VE table. From my observations FN1420 is typically has its cells set 5% lower than the corresponding cell in FN1320.

Here is a screen shot of my FN021, but I'm not sure it's set correctly or how to set it correctly. Any help in that area??

See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14779

[Diabolic1]

I tried setting the LAMRICH very lean and nada. I can confirm this using OFLAG now.

I have adjusted both 1320 and 1420 to command about 30% less fuel as well as taking my base fuel table and asking it to command roughly 15.3 A/F in the cruising/idle cells that I wish to lean out. Like clockwork, the A/F hits lean at almost 16.1 and then starts to creep back to 14.6. It does this at a idle, and a steady cruise of 2000, and 2500 rpm. I'm friggin stumped. Anyone offer some input here? It's like it has a built in target A/F of 14.6, and it goes back to it no matter what. My adaptive learning is turned off.

[scott88]

How 'dialed in' is your MAF curve? Maybe the solution is in that?

Scott

[Diabolic1]

This is a SD system, so I have no Mass Air Meter. If I leave everything stock at idle and cruise, the LAMBSE almost exactly mimics my A/F line. When I use the Trace function in in BE the 2 lines run almost right on top of eachother.

[mpaton]

I tried setting the LAMRICH very lean and nada. I can confirm this using OFLAG now.

So now you have a def with an entry for OLFLAG in it, and you say you set LAMRICH to a low value and you can now confirm that you are NOT in Open Loop. If you are not in Open Loop, then you are in closed loop. Closed loop means that any time you try to change the mixture away from stoichiometric (AFR=14.64), then the Closed loop system tries to put it right back there.

As you can confirm you're not getting OLFLAG set to 1, then you should not be surprised by this behavior. It's what you've been describing all along.

I have adjusted both 1320 and 1420 to command about 30% less fuel

FN1320 and FN1420 compute Air Mass, they don't directly command fuel.

as well as taking my base fuel table and asking it to command roughly 15.3 A/F in the cruising/idle cells that I wish to lean out. Like clockwork, the A/F hits lean at almost 16.1 and then starts to creep back to 14.6. It does this at a idle, and a steady cruise of 2000, and 2500 rpm. I'm friggin stumped.

Do you understand that this creeping back to 14.6 that you've been describing in every post, is what leads people to suspect that you're in Closed Loop? That's Closed Loop's purpose.

Anyone offer some input here? It's like it has a built in target A/F of 14.6, and it goes back to it no matter what. My adaptive learning is turned off.

Get it in Open Loop!

Set LAMRICH to 15
HLDTIM to 0
Probably a good idea to set THRMHP to 0 so you don't get upstream Air messing with you wideband readings.

[Diabolic1]

Adam logged onto my computer yesterday and experienced the same thing I'm talking about. He said that at this time he had no way that he could see in the current strategy to force it into open loop. It was a Sunday, and I didn't expect Adam to set there looking all day, so I am hoping he just missed something. That's why I'm asking for ideas so i can go back home and look or try other ideas. I know I have Lamrich, but I've never seen HLDTIM. I wonder if this is what Adam thinks may be missing.

So if and when I can command O/L all the time, then when I make the changes and put it back into C/L, will the changes become the new target setting or will it immediately start trying to go back to the 14.6 that it's targeting in C/L now? That part has always left me wondering.

[Diabolic1]

Could I just unplug my oxygen sensor to achieve the settings I want? Plug it back in after I'm done.

[sailorbob]

I tried setting the LAMRICH very lean

What did you set it to and what does your FN1360 look like?

[Diabolic1]

Here is my 1360 table. I'm trying to command a tad over 15.1 AFR during my cruise between 1700-2500 rpm.

[Diabolic1]

I tried setting the LAMRICH very lean and nada. I can confirm this using OFLAG now.

So now you have a def with an entry for OLFLAG in it, and you say you set LAMRICH to a low value and you can now confirm that you are NOT in Open Loop. If you are not in Open Loop, then you are in closed loop. Closed loop means that any time you try to change the mixture away from stoichiometric (AFR=14.64), then the Closed loop system tries to put it right back there.

As you can confirm you're not getting OLFLAG set to 1, then you should not be surprised by this behavior. It's what you've been describing all along.

I have adjusted both 1320 and 1420 to command about 30% less fuel

FN1320 and FN1420 compute Air Mass, they don't directly command fuel.

as well as taking my base fuel table and asking it to command roughly 15.3 A/F in the cruising/idle cells that I wish to lean out. Like clockwork, the A/F hits lean at almost 16.1 and then starts to creep back to 14.6. It does this at a idle, and a steady cruise of 2000, and 2500 rpm. I'm friggin stumped.

Do you understand that this creeping back to 14.6 that you've been describing in every post, is what leads people to suspect that you're in Closed Loop? That's Closed Loop's purpose.

Anyone offer some input here? It's like it has a built in target A/F of 14.6, and it goes back to it no matter what. My adaptive learning is turned off.

Get it in Open Loop!

Set LAMRICH to 15
HLDTIM to 0
Probably a good idea to set THRMHP to 0 so you don't get upstream Air messing with you wideband readings.

Right now my LAMRICH is 13.04, but I'll change it to 15.
I have no HLDTIM
I do have my THRMHP set to none or 0

I do have:
TP_HYS_OL---O/L Threshhold Hysteresis@ .075 volts
HYST2-------TPS Hyst term to enter O/L wot mode@ .0250
Fuel Minimum T/P for open loop@ 0-2800 rpm/3.0 volts--------this is actually a chart

I don't know if any of those will work or help. Perhaps I should just unplug the oxygen sensor.

[mpaton]

Right now my LAMRICH is 13.04, but I'll change it to 15.
I have no HLDTIM
I do have my THRMHP set to none or 0

You either didn't change LAMRICH or moved it the wrong way. 13.04 is rich, not lean.
If you don't have a HLDTIM, then you'll be waiting 10 seconds before Open Loop kicks in. Get Adam to put it in for you.[/quote]

I do have:
TP_HYS_OL---O/L Threshhold Hysteresis@ .075 volts
HYST2-------TPS Hyst term to enter O/L wot mode@ .0250
Fuel Minimum T/P for open loop@ 0-2800 rpm/3.0 volts--------this is actually a chart

I don't know if any of those will work or help. Perhaps I should just unplug the oxygen sensor.

Not worth bothering with the TP stuff. LAMRICH and HLDTIM is how Ford did it on other LHB*.

[Diabolic1]

So If I set the LAMRICH to 15.0, then all I have to do is wait 15 seconds at idle and my changes will become apparent in the datalogs(OFLAG will read 1)? Will setting it to 15 keep it in O/L perminantly after 15 seconds of operating time or just at idle? Since I would like to target 15.0-15.3, should I set it at 16.0? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm realdy to get this sorted out.

[sailorbob]

You will need to set LAMRICH leaner than 15:1 because you have A/F ratios of 15.37 in your FN1360 table.

[Diabolic1]

I'm going to set it at 16.0 and then go datalog at idle. I'm soing to change the O/L fuel table to reflect 15.1 in the idle cells as well. So basically I should start seeing a 1 in the OFLAG cell after about 15 seconds?

[sailorbob]

Don't worry about the 'High Load Delay Time' (aka (HLDTIM) as you will probably not enter closed loop fuelling from a cold start when using LAMRICH.

Also, you may be using FN1362 as the primary open loop fuel table at times so don't forget that and only make adjustments to FN1360.

[mpaton]

I'm going to set it at 16.0 and then go datalog at idle. I'm soing to change the O/L fuel table to reflect 15.1 in the idle cells as well. So basically I should start seeing a 1 in the OFLAG cell after about 15 seconds?

16 will work also for LAMRICH. You need LAMRICH to be set leaner than anything you're going to put in FN1360.

You should see the OLFLG after HLDTIM which is 10 seconds on your C3P2 bin.

[mpaton]

You will need to set LAMRICH leaner than 15:1 because you have A/F ratios of 15.37 in your FN1360 table.

He says he's using C3P2 which has nothing leaner than 0x80 in FN1360 (in my copy). C3P1 otoh does have 0x85.

[mpaton]

Don't worry about the 'High Load Delay Time' (aka (HLDTIM) as you will probably not enter closed loop fuelling from a cold start when using LAMRICH.

HLDTIM has nothing to do with cold start when you're in LHBH. I see it does when in GUFB, but that's not in ue here. Until HLDTIM expires, a lean LAMRICH won't cause Open Loop from Closed in C3P2.

[scott88]

This is a SD system, so I have no Mass Air Meter. If I leave everything stock at idle and cruise, the LAMBSE almost exactly mimics my A/F line. When I use the Trace function in in BE the 2 lines run almost right on top of eachother.

Sorry, I see that now after I posted.

Scott

[Diabolic1]

and the HLDTIM is 15 seconds correct? So I'll set it at 16, wait for 16 seconds, then I should make my changes or I will be able to see the fruits of my labor.

[sailorbob]

He says he's using C3P2 which has nothing leaner than 0x80 in FN1360

Look further up the post, this is not a stock table.

HLDTIM has nothing to do with cold start when you're in LHBH. ......... Until HLDTIM expires, a lean LAMRICH won't cause Open Loop from Closed in C3P2.

Yes, I know but you will not enter closed loop fuelling from a cold start which give HLDTIM time to expire making it essentially ineffective.

and the HLDTIM is 15 seconds correct? So I'll set it at 16, wait for 16 seconds, then I should make my changes or I will be able to see the fruits of my labor.

The stock C3P2 value for HLDTIM is 10 seconds, you need to reduce this time not extend it.

[Diabolic1]

I'm fine with the 10 seconds, and I do not have HLDTIM available for me to select. If this dowsn't work I'm just going to unplug the oxygen sensor. That should do it too right?

Finally, lets say I get the truck into O/L and make the changes I want. Will it go right back to the factory settings once the truck goes into C/L?


Didn't mean to send this as a PM, sorry Sailorbob.

[Diabolic1]

WooHoooo! It worked! Setting the Lamrich to 16 did the trick! Now I'm gettin O/L and my idle is 14.9-15.2 A/F. Now, when this thing has C/L enabled, will it target my new settings or go back to the original factory settings?

[mpaton]

WooHoooo! It worked! Setting the Lamrich to 16 did the trick! Now I'm gettin O/L and my idle is 14.9-15.2 A/F. Now, when this thing has C/L enabled, will it target my new settings or go back to the original factory settings?

Good! Closed Loop always targets 14.64. In theory that can be changed, but in practice it doesn't work that well apparently.

Do you have KVEFF in your Scalars?