[firemanwill28]

I’m starting to get a bit frustrated with my new build. I’ve started a few posts in the past couple months regarding my tuning issues and this new build. The previous build was N/A and went fine; the AFR’s were quite stable and easy to dial in. Now with my turbo build I’m having a nightmare time with the fuel; it’s bouncing all around between lean under tip in and low load to rich at idle and decel, this all in OL. Will running in CL take care of the lean tip in and decal? I’ve managed to get close (within .5-.7 AFR) on PT runs while building boost; I haven’t made any WOT runs do to being off on the fuel and starting to hear detonation (this while at 15-17 spark, 12.5 AFR, 10#’s boost, 4000rpm, 140-160 load, and 91 octane). My biggest concern is getting the fuel dialed in at idle, accel, decal, and cruise; WOT should take care of itself when these are figured out.

I’ve done everything from manipulate the factory injector settings, hack up the MAF curve but end up in the same place; starting back at square one with factory settings. I’ve just ordered a new pair of Siemens Deka 60’s which will hopefully help with a few things; one I’m hitting 80+ duty cycle in boost and the thread about my current cobra 39lb injectors not working well with 2 valves.

So here is where I’m at and I’m looking for some input from more experienced folks. I’ll attach a short datalog and tune that was used which was using factory injector and MAF settings. I’d really like to get this fuel situation figured out. Like I said before the 39lb injectors worked great when I was N/A, the AFR was smooth and spot on with my OL fuel table and stoich while in CL.

[decipha]

i didn't crack open your bin or log, but just stick in there, this tuning thing doesn't come overnight give it some time do some reading then make your own decisions of where you need to be and make changes to get there

[firemanwill28]

How much damage am I doing running this thing at idle in the 12.0 AFR range? And how much damae can be done in boost at 12.5 AFR and hearing detonation; the second I hear it, I let out baby it home to add more fuel? Whats your experience with the Siemens 60's and manipulating their factory specs to work right?

[EDS50]

Are you doing all this with 39# injectors? What kind of fue system do you have? What do you have for a maf meter? Where is it located and is it draw thru or blow thu?

[firemanwill28]

Are you doing all this with 39# injectors? What kind of fue system do you have? What do you have for a maf meter? Where is it located and is it draw thru or blow thu?

Yes, I'm currently running the 39's. The fuel system is a Walbro 255lph in tank, stock fuel lines and rails, Aeromtive adjustable FPR set at 39lbs. The MAF is a blow thru PMASS (with tested flow sheet) that has a welded flange attached to a straight section in the fender.

I would expect that by entering the factory injectors numbers and MAF tested curve, that fuel would be somewhat close. As you can see from the daatlog its all over the place. I've tried manipulating the injector slopes and left the curve alone, hacked up the MAF curve and left the slopes alone, and a combo of both. It seems like the closest I can get is a combo of both. Does this seem right that I should be manipulated these factory tested numbers so much?

[EDS50]

Are you doing all this with 39# injectors? What kind of fue system do you have? What do you have for a maf meter? Where is it located and is it draw thru or blow thu?

Yes, I'm currently running the 39's. The fuel system is a Walbro 255lph in tank, stock fuel lines and rails, Aeromtive adjustable FPR set at 39lbs. The MAF is a blow thru PMASS (with tested flow sheet) that has a welded flange attached to a straight section in the fender.

I would expect that by entering the factory injectors numbers and MAF tested curve, that fuel would be somewhat close. As you can see from the daatlog its all over the place. I've tried manipulating the injector slopes and left the curve alone, hacked up the MAF curve and left the slopes alone, and a combo of both. It seems like the closest I can get is a combo of both. Does this seem right that I should be manipulated these factory tested numbers so much?

255 in tank pump aint gonna cut it with 10# of boost. You most likely have not rescaled your fuel and timing tables which will also need to be done. Is the maf located right after a bend in the turbo piping? If it is the air could be going "around" the heater element of the sensor or creating alot of turbulence messing with the signal. I would have to see a picture of how the maf is actuall installed on the car to comment further.

[firemanwill28]

255 in tank pump aint gonna cut it with 10# of boost. You most likely have not rescaled your fuel and timing tables which will also need to be done. Is the maf located right after a bend in the turbo piping? If it is the air could be going "around" the heater element of the sensor or creating alot of turbulence messing with the signal. I would have to see a picture of how the maf is actuall installed on the car to comment further.

My goal is to be at 7-8 pounds of boost, due to some wastegate issues, I've been hitting 10 pounds for a half second or so. With my current stock block and rotating assembly, I'm not too interestedin hitting more than 8 pounds. I attached my tune in the original post and the timing/OL fuel table along with a few others were rescaled from the start. My lambse's are right on, I'm just trying to get the wideband to match. The MAF flange is welded 11" past the 90 bend coming from the intercooler and is striaght for another 10" before another 90 in the engine bay.

[EDS50]

255 in tank pump aint gonna cut it with 10# of boost. You most likely have not rescaled your fuel and timing tables which will also need to be done. Is the maf located right after a bend in the turbo piping? If it is the air could be going "around" the heater element of the sensor or creating alot of turbulence messing with the signal. I would have to see a picture of how the maf is actuall installed on the car to comment further.

My goal is to be at 7-8 pounds of boost, due to some wastegate issues, I've been hitting 10 pounds for a half second or so. With my current stock block and rotating assembly, I'm not too interestedin hitting more than 8 pounds. I attached my tune in the original post and the timing/OL fuel table along with a few others were rescaled from the start. My lambse's are right on, I'm just trying to get the wideband to match. The MAF flange is welded 11" past the 90 bend coming from the intercooler and is striaght for another 10" before another 90 in the engine bay.

Sounds good, Where is the wbo2 sensor mounted?

[firemanwill28]

The wideband is located 14" behind the compressor on the exhaust downpipe.

[EDS50]

The wideband is located 14" behind the compressor on the exhaust downpipe.

Are you scaling load?

[firemanwill28]

I have it set to Load%=Load, from the write ups I've read here.

[firemanwill28]

A bit of an update, I've been out on a couple datalog runs this morning and have gotten a bit closer. What I've done is leave the injector settings at factory spec and play with the MAF curve a bit. I've also got the wastegate working good now and its opening at 7-8psi. Hopefully nothing was damaged during my other test runs and hitting 10-15psi and 12-12.5 AFR on occasion :headbang: . I actually show 10.9 AFR during a slight boost run and hitting 140 load, this makes me feel better than 12.5 on 91 octane.

The problem now seems to be rich on decel (12.0ish) and lean on accel (16 all the way up to clipping the gauge). Is this a setting somewhere else?

[Disney Lincoln]

First off, the 255lph should be fine with your combo and I would lose those 39# injectors pretty quick and get some 42's in there.

You probably didn't hurt anything running it at 12.5:1. That's not a terrible thing. I've hit 14's in mine under boost and it's still alive.

It sounds like you just need to work on your MAF curve a bit more. That was the toughest part for my turbo car becuase i could built 10# under part throttle so no WOT multipliers are going to help with that. I work the MAF curve by watching the WB and the datalog to see what airflow i'm at then it runs lean then fatten up the area around there and usually on up. Then once i'm fat, or where I want to be down low I start to pay more attention to my higher RPM areas. It's easy to bring the fuel back out of it as you're not as worried about breaking something with your tune. Fat is safe in this case.

You might want to keep your timing low for this for now. How much timing you can run will depend a lot on your turbo kit and your exhaust after the turbo. If you don't have a free flowing exhaust, then you're going to be limited on the amount of timing you can run. When I first built my TT set up I had some very cheap turbo style mufflers on it and it would only take about 12* total timing at 10#. I could open the DP's and run 20* and pick up a ton of power though.

Do you have DFSO enabled? I like to have that on and adjust the parameters around it so that i'm not fueling it on decel at all.

Your lean on accel can be fixed in the MAF curve. That's your most critical FN. Do this tuning with CL disabled and get your MAF curve to match what you want then turn CL back on and see what it does. Make sure your fuel tables match what you want to do....

[decipha]

aint much difference between 39s and 42s, if your gonna step your game up then STEP YOUR GAME UP

[firemanwill28]

aint much difference between 39s and 42s, if your gonna step your game up then STEP YOUR GAME UP

My next purchase will be some Deka 60's.

[decipha]

no point in 60s might as well go 80

[Foxfan88]

Id reccomend forcing OL full time to get the tune dialed in.
Honestly it wont be any different than tuning a N/A. Just need to dial in your need maf or injectors if you changed them and make sure you got the richer fuel targets under boost and the appropriate timing.

I found trying to run a dual Hego setup on the turbo piping makes CL act honky, as the exhaust gets chopped up and becomes uneven and doesnt hit the o2s at the correct time. you can run a single HEGO setup, but i just force OL to get things dialed in and honestly i'll probably just always force OL for as much as i drive the car,

[firemanwill28]

Id reccomend forcing OL full time to get the tune dialed in.
Honestly it wont be any different than tuning a N/A. Just need to dial in your need maf or injectors if you changed them and make sure you got the richer fuel targets under boost and the appropriate timing.

I found trying to run a dual Hego setup on the turbo piping makes CL act honky, as the exhaust gets chopped up and becomes uneven and doesnt hit the o2s at the correct time. you can run a single HEGO setup, but i just force OL to get things dialed in and honestly i'll probably just always force OL for as much as i drive the car,

I have seen that both HEGO's are having problems reading the same; I'll look into running a single. I also agree with the OL buisness. I'm currently forcing OL at 45 load, my point is to have idle and cruise stable in CL. We'll see, I just need to figure out this lean tip in and rich decel.

[firemanwill28]

no point in 60s might as well go 80

Any problem at low PW's with 80's over 60's?

[decipha]

nope


open loop is for the weak, closed loop is where its at

i try to target a lambda of 1.06 and let closed loop add fuel, i hate closed loop pulling fuel, makes me upset, if i wanted less fuel i would do it myself

[firemanwill28]

nope


open loop is for the weak, closed loop is where its at

i try to target a lambda of 1.06 and let closed loop add fuel, i hate closed loop pulling fuel, makes me upset, if i wanted less fuel i would do it myself

What load goal do you set for with forcing OL; I have it low now for safety reasons. I do agree CL is much better for idel and cruise.

[Disney Lincoln]

no point in 60s might as well go 80

Any problem at low PW's with 80's over 60's?

But all things being equal, there's no way on god's green earth your combo will ever need anywhere near that much fuel, so why bother with that much injector? Your combo would be just fine with 42's, people have split blocks with that. If you're buying some anyways, i'd also go to the 60's but I wouldn't go any higher than that...

[firemanwill28]

no point in 60s might as well go 80

Any problem at low PW's with 80's over 60's?

But all things being equal, there's no way on god's green earth your combo will ever need anywhere near that much fuel, so why bother with that much injector? Your combo would be just fine with 42's, people have split blocks with that. If you're buying some anyways, i'd also go to the 60's but I wouldn't go any higher than that...

E85?

[Disney Lincoln]

I just went to 60's in my TT car so that I could go to E85. 60's on E85 will support about 600HP. That's about where I wanted to cap things off anyways due to the stock block.

[firemanwill28]

If the the 80's will work fine in lower PW's I don't see why not getting them; they're ony $30 more. I do agree they'll be way more than I need.......at this point.

[EDS50]

I cant believe all of you are so worried about injectors and not with a stand alone 255lph pump in the tank with a return style fuel system. I made 520 rwhp way back when I first started out with 36#'s. The injector is only going to flow what the pump is capable of feeding them. Why do you think even the base vortech kits come with a trex external pump?

[decipha]

no point in getting anything less than 80s these days, its just pointless

x2 on the pump

walbro 255 in tank is good for almost 700 hp

[Disney Lincoln]

I cant believe all of you are so worried about injectors and not with a stand alone 255lph pump in the tank with a return style fuel system. I made 520 rwhp way back when I first started out with 36#'s. The injector is only going to flow what the pump is capable of feeding them. Why do you think even the base vortech kits come with a trex external pump?

I've put down 580hp with a single 255 pump.... That was with MSD 50# injectors too.

If any doubts, get the new Aeromotive 340 pump. http://www.jegs.com/p/Aeromotive/Aeromo ... 6/10002/-1

[Disney Lincoln]

If the the 80's will work fine in lower PW's I don't see why not getting them; they're ony $30 more. I do agree they'll be way more than I need.......at this point.

Where are you shopping for injectors at?

[firemanwill28]

If the the 80's will work fine in lower PW's I don't see why not getting them; they're ony $30 more. I do agree they'll be way more than I need.......at this point.

Where are you shopping for injectors at?

Ebay, although I just found a set of Siemen's Deka (used) 60's for $260, so Im getting those.