[TooSlo86]

So I've had my LC-1 in the car for, well, this is the 2nd summer, and it was working great until recently. It began by showing lean spikes, then slowly migrated to showing lean as hell for the majority of the time the car is running (like 19-20:1, unrealistic for the engine to actually run). Mind you, my tune was spot on, and had not been touched when it began acting up. It has been stupid hot and humid here for a while, and I will get to why this seems relevant. I have verified no exhaust leaks, I have twice done the free air calibration, and have also done the initial install calibration, and still am getting erroneous readings from it. I would plug it into my laptop and check logworks to verify the readings, but I can’t connect my laptop to the serial cable supplied. I also am yet to wire it into the egr input to datalog. Since all of the above failed I even tried to flash a different tune to it, same outcome. What I have finally been able to establish is that when it is humid, or especially raining is when it reads wrong. When the humidity finally broke and we have had nice cooler, drier air it has been showing closer to actual more than wrong readings. So, on days it is humid but not raining, it would mostly show around 17-18:1, on days when it is raining it jumps up to 19-20:1 or higher. I understand that humidity amongst many other atmospheric conditions do affect your tune, but not to this extent! The #’s I’m getting are impossible for the car to run correct, usually around 16.5:1 or higher with correct readings the car starts to buck and pop, so I know it’s not real as the car is running just as good as it ever has. Another thing to mention is that when I make WOT pulls about 90% of the time it shows accurate readings, I did see it jump to 14.8 once, which once again, no way possible without serious hiccups as it typically doesn’t tolerate over 13.2 at wot.

So in short, is my sensor going out, my controller, my gauge, or wth?

I’ve recently read a lot about these and wish I would have before I purchased it as they seem to have issues that have now become apparent. I’ve also read that if the sensor was bad I would be getting an error code, otherwise something else is wrong. I just want this thing to read correct again, but I don’t want to buy a new sensor just to find out that’s not even the problem. Also, regardless how strong your feelings on ditching it and going with an AEM, or xxxx brand that is way better, that simply isn’t an option.

Has ANYONE ever dealt with this before, and found a solution to it?

[decipha]

this is the 1st ive heard of a case like this

i know its a long shot but i would reground it, even if its got a good ground i would look for better

[TooSlo86]

That was going to be my next move, tear out the console and check my ground. It would kind of make sense that the electrical resistance would go up and down with humidity, but I don't know if added resistance would make it show lean or rich falsely. Not too big on the electrical stuff and definetely don't know the schematic for this. But I guess, added resistance would allow less voltage to feed back so that would be more lean. :dunno: Just thinking in print.

[pedal92]

i have an LC-1, and after six month's i experienced about the same thing you are. but mine was showing rich 9.5-10.5. then with no warning the lc-1 died. the rep at innovative said the lc-1 is being replaced with the MTX. this is due to the failures with the lc-1. he even offered me a discount on the mtx. since my lc-1 only lasted 6-7 months. i'm thinking of going with autometer, just need to do some research on it.

[TooSlo86]

i have an LC-1, and after six month's i experienced about the same thing you are. but mine was showing rich 9.5-10.5. then with no warning the lc-1 died. the rep at innovative said the lc-1 is being replaced with the MTX. this is due to the failures with the lc-1. he even offered me a discount on the mtx. since my lc-1 only lasted 6-7 months. i'm thinking of going with autometer, just need to do some research on it.

Great! But it does seem to be par for the course from reading the Innovate forum. Just wish I would have done my homework beforehand.

[dualdj1]

A lot of folks have used the LC-1 for quite some time though with good results. The anti-fouler seems to be a good idea with it though (and any WB for that matter)

[pony]

The LC-1's memory can get corrupted. Run LM Programmer and make sure the fuel type is set to gasoline, I have a feeling it's not. Next reset all the calibration slopes to factory values. Recalibrate the meter in free air and post up your findings after you do this. Also make sure to compare the air fuel ratio given by LogWorks3 to what ever other program you're using to make sure they match up.

[TooSlo86]

DualDJ1, Yea, I was one of those till just recently, what kind of controller are you running? LOL

Pony, Just added a ground and we'll see what that gets me, don't have high hopes but it's a start. I have read about what you are referring to in regards to the memory, and that would have been the first thing I checked but...first I have to figure out how to interact with my wb and logworks as my laptop doesn't have a serial port.

Thanks

[TooSlo86]

Well the added ground got me no where, except I was able to make a correlation of another behavior. Drove 10 miles, turned the car off. During this warm up time it was showing very lean more than it was showing normal #'s. Drove back home 10 miles and it slowly began bouncing around stoich more than lean #'s. So what I figured out during the first 10 miles is that if I was at a steady cruise (high manifold vacuum) it was showing erroneous #'s, but if I mashed the throttle in 5th in turn dropping the manifold vacuum it would come down to normal. SO, now I'm thinking I sucked a lower intake gasket giving me an internal vacuum leak. Makes sense in my head, as when the engine got warmer expansion kicks in and semi-sealed the leak, plus it seemed to hold around stoich more and more as I drove with less spikes lean. Make any sense? Now, adding on the fact that the car lost 3 mph from time trials to eliminations at the last event, it makes more sense. I just attributed that to the drastic changes in atmospheric conditions at the time even though it didn't add up. :duh:

So IS there an easy way to verify a lower intake gasket leak?

[pony]

I would still run the tests I suggested. Borrow a USB to Serial adapter from someone and run LM Programmer to see. If you can wait 3 weeks and can risk $3.77, these cheap ones from China work http://www.dealextreme.com/p/usb-to-rs2 ... cable-5859 What's the use of a wide band if you can't datalog? I can't imagine trying to keep track of everything and stare at a wide band guage too while racing.

You can remove the upper intake, screw in a leak down tester fitting into your spark plug, pump in some air with a compressor and twist the crank until the exhaust valve is closed, but the intake valve is open. Now you can cover with your hand the port and see if the air leaks out. By the time you do all 8 cylinders, you could have easily replaced the lower intake though. Did you mill your heads or something that might cause poor lower intake to cylinder head geometry?

[TooSlo86]

Yea, I've got access to a borrowed laptop that I'm going to install logworks onto. Going to see if I can't round up my terminator plug, logworks disc and wire today so we can check it out on the way in tomorrow. My buddy that was helping me out at the race made a good point, I ran the battery down and we had to use a jumper box to fire it, so that could easily be the point where the LC-1 got screwy. Ever since that weekend it has been acting aloof too.

Got to observe another interesting thing this morning in the 10 miles I drove it in cool dry air. It was almost like it was "learning" again, the more I drove the closer to normal it got. Typically what I have seen is that in the mornings it is more off than in the afternoon, but not this morning (it was still all over the place, but more often showing good #'s). I also noticed that it seemed the gauge was trying to flash alot of #'s at once, like it was being overloaded with inputs so it does seem like something is going on in the controller or gauge itself. It also wasn't following my, drop the vacuum and it goes normal thing :crazy:

Getting it wired up to dl afr is one of those things that I seriously need to get taken care of, just never get around to doing. I don't usually have a chance to look down at the gauge during a pass till I"m already in 3rd or 4th gear so I just rely on knowing that it's running 12.5:1 at wot from street driving that I do during the week leading up to racing. It would be VERY beneficial to get it wired up, but 1st I need to get it to display reliable #'s again.

Nope, no head milling, they were put on the longblock at the factory, and that's how they are. The engine has been untouched for about 6 yrs or so and my timing cover/wp gasket just started leaking and had to be replaced last summer so it wouldn't be a far throw to expect an intake gasket to be on it's way out.

[dualdj1]

I'm using the AEM 30-4100 UEGO. It's ok, I didn't do a whole lot of research before I got it though and just ordered cause it was on sale.

[TooSlo86]

I'm using the AEM 30-4100 UEGO. It's ok, I didn't do a whole lot of research before I got it though and just ordered cause it was on sale.

Yea, I was just being a smart-ass, saw it there in your sig, but you were saying how others had good luck with the LC-1's

It's looking more and more like the controller just lost it's memory when the battery got ran down, as Pony was saying.

[dualdj1]

No worries After getting mine, and having a few issues, had considered selling it for an LC-1. One of my buddies picked up one for his Mitsubishi and has had no probs.

[decipha]

i've used the AEM's in my personal cars and i couldn't be happier

[pony]

Yeah, run LM Programmer on a friends laptop, on the main window it should say 14.7 Gasoline



Then go through the other tabs and set them to "Factory Default"



I have a strong feeling yours doesn't. Having the battery go low makes sense. Innovate needs to set the brown out voltage higher on these Atmel microcontrollers they use to prevent corruption due to low voltage. Might as well download their latest firmware and update yours while you're at it in case you have an older version. You'll need to do a free air recalibration after all this.

[TooSlo86]

Ahh damn, memory refreshed now that I got it all back out. It's not that my laptop doesn't have a serial port. It's just that I need male to male connector since both the cable and laptop are female. That's pretty dumb, as my buddies laptop was the same way. I'll see what I can turn up quick.

[TooSlo86]

Ok, I hooked it up to an old desktop. It was still in factory default settings, which is how I was using it all this time so Now I'm just trying to figure out how to connect to logworks if possible to see if the serial out is showing the same screwy readings as my gauge.

[pony]

I think you're confusing the serial port with the VGA video port on your laptops.

This is the VGA video connector, notice the extra pins





This is the serial connector you want, notice there are only 9 pins



You might as well spend the $3.77 using the link above to get a USB to serial adapter or you can go to best buy, radio shack, etc and spend $20 for the same thing but not have to wait 3 weeks.

[TooSlo86]

Ok, mine doesn't have that but it doesn't matter. I used an old desktop, set to factory defaults, which it was in fact still programmed to. Then I once again did the heater calibration, and free air calibration. I did also get logworks to connect to it and after all that, the gauge on lw jives with the DB gauge. Took it down the road again and now it won't even drop down to 12.5 at wot like it used to, or 14.7ish when I blip the throttle. I am over this. I think it's time to bust out the cash for a new sensor and hope that's what it is since it did seem to slowly decline.

That is of course unless someone can think of anything I've missed. Remember, this has been working fine for nearly 2 summers now, so it's not a new install, and nothing has changed either.

Thanks Pony

[pony]

Just to confirm, does this window say "(14.7) Gasoline" http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7536/i ... screen.jpg ?

Autozone usually has the best price on these replacement Bosch sensors.

[TooSlo86]

Just to confirm, does this window say "(14.7) Gasoline" http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7536/i ... screen.jpg ?

Autozone usually has the best price on these replacement Bosch sensors.

Yup, sure does, and all of the other stuff is set back to factory. I've actually priced one out through Advance Auto and using an online discount from retailmenot it's $36.99+tax. Guess you can't beat that with a stick. I'll have to post up the info after ordering for others in the future.

Thanks again, Chris

[pony]

That's the best price I've seen for sure.

What air fuel ratio do you see at the track? Your setup runs great for the parts you have. How much does your car weigh with driver ?

[TooSlo86]

Thanks Down in Joliet, they weighed me @ 3225, Milan last month I was @ 3240 only difference was fuel. For A/F it just depends on what my intentions are, weather conditions really and if I can get the car to run the #'s in time trials or not. For an all out fun day/test and tune where I am in full race trim without mufflers and p/s pump bypassed, I target for 12.5:1. Down in Joliet the car was running 12.9x's-13.00's which is right where I needed it to and that was down at 11.8-11.9:1. Now down in Milan, only got one time trial due to rain and it went 12.96@106 so I left it alone, but by the time eliminations came I could only best a 13.19@103.88! Those were on my 12.5:1 tune.
The car has actually gone 7.93 @ 87.95 in the 1/8th this spring which bested that 12.56's 1/8 time of 8.01 @ 86.44 so I'm a little peeved that they only ran us 1/8th mile on that day since that has been my only full race trim all out track outing this year. I keep running in True Street where I have to run mufflers, P/S, and have to have enough gas to make a 30 mile cruise and 3 back to back passes. I'm waiting for October so I can hopefully see what she's got left to offer! Anyway, you can check out some clips here; http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... slo86&aq=f anyway, got to get off to work. Thanks again for the help!

So a little update, drove 42 miles to work this morning, at first the w/b was showing way lean, like in the 20's, then as I drove further, it started flashing would be normal #'s, but it wouldn't always drop to normal when I dropped the engine vacuum, sometimes it would even show down in the 11's, and I KNOW for sure there is no point that it ever goes that rich on this tune so, yea, thing is jacked. Gonna order a new one and hope for the best.

Here's the Advance Auto W/B replacement. All you have to do is google Advance Auto Discount code and go to the one that is retailmenot and use whatever code, in this case it's A123 for $20 off. I've used these codes ALOT. Only thing is you have to order and pay for it online, then just pick them up at the store.

[TooSlo86]

Solved! Replaced the sensor when I got home. It works again! :bananadance:

It hit me on the way home after laying into it and noticed it started working for a bit. I should have caught on since it had a bunch of soot on it that the heater element wasn't working, but it wasn't till I laid into it and brought the egt's up enough that it hit me.

So, true story, your W/B won't always give you a heater malfunction error code when it's bad!

Thanks for all the input guys.

[pony]

Nice, glad you got it fixed. For kicks if you have time, try using a propane torch to clean off the carbon soot off the old sensor and see if it brings it back to life.


Your cars track performance is impressive. What was the piston to valve clearance like with that cam and 1.7 rockers? What RPM do you shift at? The 1/8th mile trap speed is impressive, considering you should be shifting into 4th right before the 1/8th. As for the air fuel ratio, is 12.5 what the wide band shows, or just what you're commanding? I'm assuming you've got the EEC properly tuned so what ever you command is what the wide band shows.

[TooSlo86]

No clue on piston to valve clearance, never had the engine apart. I don't have 1.7 rockers, just stockers yet, but the cam is designed to be used without having to notch the stock H.O. pistons while using 1.7 rockers.

I take it to 6000 between every gear. On a semi prepped track 5k launches are the norm while I have been able to pull off 6k on occasion, what a difference!

I command 12.5 from 80% load up and 90 degrees. Low in the rpms it'll start coming down from 13 or so then hang on to 12.5-12.6 till just b4 shift where it floats up to around 12.8-12.9, for the most part, weather plays a role too, but I do have a tune for when it is retarded hot and humid and another for cooler, I've yet to find a perfect median for both. I don't know about properly tuned, but I'm pretty happy with it. Still learning a whole lot, and most of it is through this forum. Take it easy.

[dualdj1]

i've used the AEM's in my personal cars and i couldn't be happier

only actual problem i've had is i get a high pitched whine from the gauge itself. AEM thought it might be a bad ground but have everything grounded together. It's not real loud and still works, so meh.

[pony]

TooSlo86, can you post your dyno graph? I assume the 284rwhp you made was SAE? Good numbers for your setup. Try inverting your air fuel and see if it helps you. Run it a tad leaner until you hit your peak HP RPM, then run it a tad rich. How much timing and what octane gas are you running? How is the idle and drivability of the AFM B21?

[TooSlo86]

No unfortunetely they ran it in STD correction, so it was only good for that time and day. I do have a guy I work with that owns a mobile dyno and he looked at the input conditions and figured that it corrected to around 274 or 270 . He did also say that my torque could be down due to the afr and that I should play around with that. I am actually having him come down to my place at the beginning of October for a dyno day, so I will get actual SAE corrected #'s and hopefully since I'll have been tuning it for a year more do even better, or at least match the std #'s. So if you're anywhere near Mid-Michigan, we still need 1 more person to make it a done deal! As far as timing, here's what I'm commanding, I am also seeing it in my datalogs, thing I don't get is this is where it traps best, sure seems like an awful lot though.

16383.75 37.00
5000.00 37.00
3500.00 33.50
2600.00 32.50
2150.00 31.00
1800.00 28.00
1000.00 18.00
0.00 18.00
0.00 18.00

This is what I run at the track when I run 93 octane. I can usually get away with it on the street unless it's real hot out, then it pings during shifts. For a hot weather 87 octane typical commute I have found I can get away with only pulling a degree up top and a bit more in the mid range.

The idle is noticeable, not huge, but noticeable (about 13"Hg vac), I'm still fighting getting the idle afr dialed in, but it'll happily idle at the stock 672. Driveability is AWESOME, especially when you get the fueling dialed in good, great responsiveness from a stop and through the gears. I can lug the thing down to 35mph in 5th without bucking, that's just a tad over 1k rpm. There is a definite power band that comes on relatively noticeable at around 3500 but I wonder if that isn't the larger intake. I cruise about 1750 or so rpm for the most part of my commute and as long as I can keep my foot out of it it'll knock down anywhere from 23-24mpg since tuning. Last year 20-21 was the norm, now if I moderately enjoy it I can pull that.

I am honestly VERY glad I didn't end up with an alphabet cam, I can't say that it wouldn't have worked, but it just seems there are more people running those with aftermarket heads that are struggling to turn equivelent times or #'s and it's not like my long block is fancy! Don't get me wrong, there are also plenty in the 11's with the same setup too, and some day I'll be there. I am incredibly happy with how simple this setup is and what it's capable of, on the track, and in my daily commute. Ok, I'm done preaching myself!