MPG Topic... ACETONE increases mileage?,,, about to try it.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:12 am

I've read this in the past few months where Acetone will increase gas mileage. A friend called me this morning and he has taken his worn out civic and gave it a shot since he really didn't want to try it on his newer car. He has picked up 4mpg. (slightly more but rounded down).

2 ounces to 10 gallons is the mixture. I'm going to start reading up on links.

Tuning question: If you have heard about this, any changes in A/F ratio or timing I should look at?

This is a good summary link to what I have found.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... l_Additive

"Honda Del Sol 1993 SI - An overly-exhaustive treatise on the experiences of a UCLA graduate film student (author and former newspaper reporter) using acetone for over 30,000 miles as he commutes between San Diego and Los Angeles. Short version: Definite increase in efficiency from 27-29 mpg without acetone to 33-35 mpg with acetone. Also more power and nice, smooth-running engine. "

talltim · Post by **talltim** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:46 am

Like I said on the list; its good stuff. I'll post up numbers when I install the LM-1

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:01 am

I'm in the process now of collecting base lines after I get my MAF curve nailed down solid. My KAM's are either perfect or I've got a problem but they are locked at 1 100% of the time now and that is as of last night and this morning and all I did was clear the KAM's and edit my MAF.

This is my average mpg with just tuning. This is at the end of my log and I'm doing a.m. mostly because I never stop to make changes in the mornings.

7/12 24.87
7/11 24.38
7/10 23.75
7/09 22.17
7/06 21.90

Prior to this MPG tuning effort all I could achieve was 21-22 at these speeds and conditions.

Today, 7/12 I intentionally pressed the car harder into the 100 mph zone for about 3 miles and drove slightly more aggressive. In the morning I will press it harder. Just to make sure I'm not subconsciously light footing it.

I'm using the EA to keep a check on my tune. After I'm comfortable it is no longer making changes I will get about 3 days of solid base lines a.m. and p.m. commutes then start on the Acetone.

craig429 · Post by **craig429** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:50 pm

I just saw on Myth Busters they had ran a test to see if acetone would increase MPG. They found it had reduced MPG. I didn't get to see how they measured MPG so they could of had an error there.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:17 pm

Yes I think responses are mixed. On the link above you see just about every type of car represented. I dismiss people who have never tried it either way and I do know those that state increases might be light footing due to the fact that it is an inclination to get better mileage. However they also say the biggest convincing factor is after having run it for a few tanks and stop they get worse mileage. So if it is a psychological effect one would think the majority would have a tendency to keep the same driving style that ends up yielding lower results after stopping the acetone.

That said I think increase or decrease depends on the ratio of acetone used. More is worse. And the type of vehicle in the test. Some state no increase or decrease but seem to have given it an honest attempt. While others say been using it for months and getting about 2 more per gallon.

Now if I don't see any difference and yet another 5.0 non GT50P headed car gets an increase I could understand that due to my engine having better heads to start with.

I have an Original 92 SSP Mustang. It only has 3.27 gears and 10" 2800 converter. It is 100% stock to the filter box and mufflers outside of those two modifications. I will be also trying it.

codedout · Post by **codedout** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:35 am

Well I have an interesting theory, that an old school mechanic tought me. However it really doesnt seem to work very well with fuel injection but people are willing to give it a shot.

In the old carb days, if you hooked up a vacuum guage and tried to drive the car at a consistent speed, and tried to keep the hightest value of vacuum at that speed you could get better gas mileage by up to 4mpg.

I have tried it with my pony but cant seem to get more than 2mpg better, and its very inconsistant.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:20 am

codedout wrote:Well I have an interesting theory, that an old school mechanic tought me. However it really doesnt seem to work very well with fuel injection but people are willing to give it a shot.

In the old carb days, if you hooked up a vacuum guage and tried to drive the car at a consistent speed, and tried to keep the hightest value of vacuum at that speed you could get better gas mileage by up to 4mpg.

I have tried it with my pony but cant seem to get more than 2mpg better, and its very inconsistant.

Yes, some older GM cars came with a gauge that had economy on it and such. It was basically just a vacuum gauge.

twinturbostang · Post by **twinturbostang** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:25 pm

Doesn't acetone eat all the rubber fittings in your fuel system? That stuff is pretty caustic.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:34 pm

twinturbostang wrote:Doesn't acetone eat all the rubber fittings in your fuel system? That stuff is pretty caustic.

If you read the link provided above it will explain it. Ever pour gas into a Solo cup? Automotive plastics are a different grade and quality. You can also go to your local parts house and start identifying various brands of fuel additives in plasticcontainers. Acetone will be among the ingredients of some.

Adam McLaughlin · Post by **Adam McLaughlin** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:27 pm

That reminds me of the time that a buddy of mine tried to move fuel between one container and another using an extra large slurpee cup. Boy, that was a mess....

Adam

blk91gt · Post by **blk91gt** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:01 am

I tried this about 2 years ago in my beeter which if my POS 87 LX 2.3. I used about 250-300ml of acetone in the 50 liter tank. I saw about 15 more kilometers per tank on average, which actually works about to about a 6% gain in economy. I was sceptical going into it but right away I did notice a much quieter idle and cruise as if the engine was smoother. Power increase was negligable, but the snoothness was the most noticable part. About 4 months later the cam split (probably unrelated :) ) and i've not been brave enough to try it on my new car (98 acura CL).

On a beater car I didn;t care but the thought of wear on fuel system componants has detered me from trying on my dailey drver or the mustang.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:05 am

My logic is this. Acetone probably helps clean the engine thus make it do what it does even better. With the variances in fuel, additive packages one thing that remains constant during the Acetone test is the Acetone itself. If you have a clean and lean burning engine then you will probably see no difference. If you run 93+octane which typically has cleaner packages, outside of the octane number, you probably get the benefit of cleaner gas. Acetone seems to be a cheaper option for those running 87 octane who don't have a lean clean engine.

I seriously doubt any power benefit comes from the Acetone nor pay much attention to the molecular goings on because most modern engines have a good fuel vapor / atomization thing working.

As for eating rubber and plastics I'm quiet sure those hazards exist in the additives we pour in the tank throughout the life of the car. As long as you keep it in the dosage recommended. For instance, don't go pouring a gallon of anything into your tank except gas. Just empty what ever container you buy for the size tank you have. Most state,,, "Treats 16-21 gallons" etc... So pouring 8 bottles in your tank might have a negative impact on the situation.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am

This is a duplicate but I hope this will help to keep order in the thread.

For the rest, go here.

viewtopic.php?t=8144

[EDIT]Keep in mind I have NOT tried the ACETONE yet.

AVG………..........10th......11th.....12th......13th.....13th PM
RPM………..........1870.....1781....1837.....1805.....1774
KAM1……..........0.969....0.966...1...........0.948.....0.937
KAM2……..........0.961....0.958...1...........0.932.....0.919
Lambse1….......14.22....12.93...14.45....15.01.....14.73
Lambse2….......14.36....13.13...14.75....15.14.....14.78
Load……….........31.092..26.71...29.52....31.98.....30.2
MPH………..........61.46....60.72...62.3.....60.72.....61.21
HP…………..........37.74....33.63...32.15....36.209...34.67
TQ…………..........101.73..96.1.....89.64....100.68...98.35
AVGMPG….........23.75...24.38...24.87....23.83.....25.39
ColumnAvg.......23.22...23.76...23.29....22.9.....23.12
Inst………….........25.78...26.69...26.801...27.14...26.38
Load Switch.......Ld=0....Ld=0...Ld=0......Ld=0..Lad=0
ACT locked
Kams 12th

OPEN LOOP the last three days. AM and PM mixed in.

AVG…….........16am..16th.....17am...17th...18am...19tham...19th....20th AM
RPM……........1811....1716....1706....1752..1731....1813.......1752...1738
KAM1….........0.933...0.958...0.978...1.......1.........1............1.........1.02
KAM2….........0.917...0.949...0.948...0.97...0.99....0.99.......0.99.....0.99
Lambse1......14.89...15.18...14.89..14.48..14.62..16.21.....16.43....17.21
Lambse2......14.96...15.3.....14.86..14.46..14.77..16.21.....16.43....17.21
Load……........31.......33.15...28.52...29.86..28.02..30.79.....30.81....30.29
MPH…..........61.21...56.84....56.32..59.3....58.96..61.97......58.92...59.93
HP…………......35.7.....34.45...29.80...31.2....29.23..30.48......28.64...26.73
TQ…………......98.44...101.65..88.18..92.......85.37..85.32......87.5....81.44
AVGMPG….....24.66...22.33...25.3....24.2....24.61..26.34......26.38...28.59
ColumnAvg..23.91....21.53...22.97..22.12..23.66..24.55......23.28....26.14
Inst…..........27.999...25.96..27.64..25.74...29.28..28.65......27.65....31.58
Load Switch..Ld=0.....Ld=1....Ld=1....Ld=1...Ld=1...Ld=1......Ld=1.....Ld=1
OL..........OL.........OL

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:52 am

I suppose the acetone could mess with the O2 sensors - tricking the engine into running a bit leaner - this is the only explanation I can come up with that seems remotely possible to me. The other explanations seem rather like wishful thinking to me.

Seeing as how gasoline already has ethanol, xylene, benzene and other nasty chemicals in it, I am not sure why adding another would make a difference unless, as I suggested above, it somehow messed with the O2 sensors.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:08 am

Cougar5.0 wrote:I suppose the acetone could mess with the O2 sensors - tricking the engine into running a bit leaner - this is the only explanation I can come up with that seems remotely possible to me. The other explanations seem rather like wishful thinking to me.

Seeing as how gasoline already has ethanol, xylene, benzene and other nasty chemicals in it, I am not sure why adding another would make a difference unless, as I suggested above, it somehow messed with the O2 sensors.

I forgot to mention. I have NOT tried the Acetone yet. These are just baseline tuning modifications tried first to be clear. I mentioned that in my other thread and forgot to here.

I will start the Acetone after I get all I can by tuning and varying driving conditions.

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:14 am

I know you haven't tried acetone yet, I was just responding to the suppositions of you and others in this post as to why they think acetone may have improved mileage for some people...

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:27 am

understood. I'm really curious to see what will happen. I've heard so much fluff about it on both sides to where I don't know what to think but the evidence itself will be the only thing to determine if my car gets hooked on Acetone like it's "crack" :D

hillbilly25177 · Post by **hillbilly25177** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:17 pm

Do you guys think that increased emissions is the only reason not to have a light throttle mixture substantially higher than ideal?

I know that being lean can cause damage at high power levels but is running your car lean at cruising load going to cause drastically higher maintenance problems, fouled plugs, combustion chamber sot or whatever?

Any luck with the acetone?

Post by **cgrey8** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:27 pm

Running leaner at cruising loads will increase the burn temperature, which increases the production of NOx (Nitrogen Oxide) emissions as well as simply heats things up (plugs, exhaust valve, O2 sensors, etc). I can't say that at cruising loads, it's enough heat to do "damage". But the way to counteract it is with EGR. The presence of the EGR gasses help to cool the burn very much like adding octane to the fuel. So IMO, if you can run a much leaner burn without driveability issues, just make sure you maintain the EGR. In fact, increasing EGR flow above stock may be a way to get the engine to behave better during lean-running. For those experimenting with MFA, it might be worth experimenting with if you still have the EGR in tact.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:00 pm

I havent tried the acetone yet. I've been working on making sure I have the leanest tune I can run on a daily basis without transition issues, detonation, and driveability lugging, jerking and such. I'm about there and have even trimmed out some of my start up issues because it starts up in OL so I had to adjust my startup settings and allow it to stay in CL during idle, and get into CL as soon as possible. I also confirmed my output with a wide band.

This week I got the A/C fixed in my SSP coupe and have been tuning it some too. It is near 100% original. Has gears and a converter but is stock as it came from the factory otherwise. It is only getting 19-20mpg on a base factory A9P tune with just the checksum set and datalogging added.

The interesting thing is I did try leaning it out some more and forcing OL, it for sure doesnt like to run as lean as my Explorer powered Mustang. But the Exp engine started out at 21.9 and at that same point every morning which is 16 miles into my commute I'm showing 29! The SSP of course still retains the stock 5.0, even the mufflers are stock. It is weak as ice water when I try to lean it out.

I'm eventually going to try the acetone but I am going to get everything dialed in first and repeat my results a few days.

I have been watching my plugs and headers for discoloration. So far so good. The engine doesnt run any hotter than usual.

Post by **cgrey8** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:07 pm

Have you maintained the EGR on the Explorer motor?

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:23 pm

OH, that... Let me tell you. I bolted it on. Ran the cooling lines, etc... then applied the vacuum source. Car wouldnt idle well. I began testing the control for it and I think it is dead. So it is there as soon as I can make it to the junk yard and get a part. I had to turn EGR back off in the Scalar. I noted pinging on my first trip out and remembered the EEC expecting inert gas, and without it the mixture would be replaced with oxygen instead of inert gas.-lean.... So turning EGR back off after pulling over solved the pinging.

I hope to get it online soon and see if I can run it any leaner.

Post by **cgrey8** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:37 pm

I had a problem with EGR a few weeks ago and I discovered that I had the vacuum lines on the EGR actuator on backwards. Once I reversed the lines on the actuator, I got EGR movement again. So if it wasn't moving for you, make sure you have the lines on correctly. I THINK the bottom tap is the EGR line and the top one is the vacuum.

hillbilly25177 · Post by **hillbilly25177** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:48 pm

I guess the early 5.0 motor not wanting to run lean shows you how much better the GT40-P heads are, and evidently its a bunch, good luck.

do'h · Post by **do'h** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:17 pm

Another good Acetone read very informative.

http://www.supersam.com/?page_id=77

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:58 pm

hmmm, that is interesting. I'm getting closer to trying it. I'm stuck in the, REPEATING results again and again part of my testing for base lines.

I have pretty much maxed out all I can in two of my cars. If I go any leaner I get jerking or it will attempt to ping in which case I stop and add fuel back. Removing timing does no good because of the lean mixture and compression (heat) is the wall I'm up against. I've added enough fuel back that I was able to add timing and no ill effects on MPG but took it as far as I could. In fact it got to the point to where lack of torque with low timing was about to be a negative factor on these hills with MPG.

I'm interested to see the wide band results when acetone completes the burn as he states and it goes on out the pipe burning...

Post by **cgrey8** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:35 pm

I got 1/2 way through that article and just couldn't read any more. He's got about 1% useful information in 99% propaganda-talk. As a scientist, he sure writes articles like an activist.

The technical information he wrote (at least what I read) can be boiled down to this:

Fewer cylinders get better gas mileage than engines with more cylinders where both engines are the same CID
Acetone is only useful in 2-3oz per 10gal gasoline (more has a diminishing return)
Only use Acetone that's 100% and preferably from a beauty saloon. No Benzoate or other additives.
All acetone is doing is reducing the surface tension of fuel so it'll atomize more readily instead of sticking to itself
Xylene (xylol) & trimethylbenzene, whatever those are, augment the benefits of acetone in 1oz per 10gal gasoline (he never mentions where you can get these at)

The rest of the article is just him ranting.

I think my favorite rant though is where he talks about the computers in cars being programmed to purposely give the car bad gas mileage. Check this out:

...One detail in modern cars needs attention. The computers on some cars are apparently sabotaged against an increase in MPG. There is some number constant in the computer memory that when the car attempts to exceed that value, the computer enriches the mixture to defeat the mileage boost. This is a form of robbery of the public. Many instances of an inability to exceed a fixed MPG might be traced to this subtle sabotage. I hear from guys who bragged to their mechanic or service manager that they were getting great mileage, but when they picked up the car after simple maintenance, the MPG was down by 5 or more. That is a rotten abuse by the dealer, if the stories are true. Why might this be a real policy? Because with better MPG, the longer the engine lasts—and the less likely the owner will trade for a new car...

I can believe that acetone does reduce surface tension and thus promotes atomization to give better fuel economy by burning more of your fuel. But to even hint that the car mfgs sabotage efficiency is a bit extreme.

He also seems to have a special hatred for alcohol. I don't too much like ethanol myself due to it's corrosive nature and lack of lubrication on fuel parts causing premature failure to parts not designed to work with alcohol. I also don't care for the politics behind the push for ethanol and potential economic effects on food prices. But I don't have an out-right hatred for it.

In any case, I'm hoping someone else can read this article and actually feel enlightened by it, not like they just sat through a time-share presentation.

patrickmx2 · Post by **patrickmx2** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:17 pm

Yes that is a fair assessment of his entire article. It's about 90% rant by volume. He should have refrained from the same level of negative mumbo jumbo he is writing about coming from others. I do agree that until someone tries it they shouldn't wholesale cut it off at the knees but he went to extremes to defend those points.

My guess is if he has been doing it 50 years then he is reacting to all the nonsense he gets to it in bad way but I think he means well, or stated out that way.

I did read most of the way through. Even if he is correct about sneaky things companies potentially do to prevent mileage, there would be at least ONE company going,,, wait a minute,,, this would sell like hot cakes. Who cares if I can't sell a bajilliion of them because they last forever. Or at least some company might stop and think, well I'll turn down these millions in hush money to save the planet and only make 10 zillion instead of 100 times that in hush money.

Some kit car company out there like FFR or something could say, hey, buy this kit and get 50mpg. That would effectively eliminate all the Federal Crash regulations and red tape to get a product to market. I thought about doing something crazy to my FFR Cobra but due to my son's diagnosis I sold the car.

Any one of us could use a Fox body chassis to invent some new power train

but we are all "mostly" focused on just going faster and 20mpg...

do'h · Post by **do'h** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:01 pm

Truthfully anything is possible here regarding vehicles being sabotaged by auto manufacturers to increase fuel consumption / sales. Makes sense to me from an economics standpoint evil YES. It would not suprise me at all if this was true. Besides, huge chunk of North American economy is dependant on the automotive industry.

In any case there is only one way to find out if acetone really does work & that is to try it. I am actually going to try this out of curiousity.

Cougar5.0 · Post by **Cougar5.0** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:44 pm

OK, the comments about Xylene & trimethyl benzene tripped my bullshit-o-meter.

This is a huge scam. Don't believe me?

This is the MSDS of Wall-Mart gasoline:

MPG Topic... ACETONE increases mileage?,,, about to try it.

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